Can 27, 01 / Jun 16, 17 13:08 UTC

Re: Asgardia Cannot be a Constitutional Monarchy  

So, my friends, proud asgardians... we're having more than something, to answer to the topic's question, don't you think?

And the answer iiiiiiiis... YES: Asgardia will be exactly a Constitutional(?) Monarchy.

Even if, from my limited and humble (and non-legal) point of view, it seems more an Ereditary Monarchy, reading the Constitution.
But I leave this point to the 5-years-future, as there is a (very small) chance the Parliament can propose a candidate different than the one which the king will "suggest".

@Stefan86
Totally agree. +1

Can 27, 01 / Jun 16, 17 19:21 UTC

Hello,

I decided to write this short message to state my reasons for not voting...

1) Not being able to vote the constitution project at all, why is there no such option? In that sense, for the best beginning, perhaps there could be an option to choose how to vote the constitution (yes, no, blank) and with current database technology, the vote could also be enriched by a simple poll, where the voter could anonymously explain the reasons for the vote, for future political reflection.

2) I believe that Accountability and Transparency should also be fundamental values. 

3) I would personally prefer an Open Democratic Meritocracy, but this wouldn't be the main issue, because the constitution, with the exception of points 1) and 2). is quite open to consensus. There seems to be wide constitutional space for debate, decision and change. Unfortunately 1) and 2) have not been contemplated, and they are of maximum importance, in my perspective.

4) Just as a detail, it seems to me that the prospect of a future where the Human kind may set herself free from disease (including Ageing as a disease) should be considered whenever establishing legal age limits for anything regarding this enterprise.

5) In conclusion, the prospect of Humanity going beyond our motherland, the Earth, is very dear to me. The concept of Asgardia was, initially, very dear to me and exciting. It is now sadly that I opt not to embark in this journey, for which I wish all the best.

Best Regards,

Luis

EDIT (12/07/2017)

Salutations,

I have just received an email saying that there is a day left to vote. I have decided to give it a second thought and reread the document. Same as in the first time I did, I agree with what this Constitution stands for, in many dimensions. However I was very worried about what I have previously mentioned in 1) 2) 3) and 4). Fortunately, I have received the email reminding me of the proximity of the end of the voting period. I can count that, in this moment, 167837 / 2 - 79592 = 4327 persons' votes are required to obtain a quorum and pass the Constitution. The weight of responsibility, fortunately, led me to double-checking my previous personal assessment. It wouldn't be fair not to support a possibly fair Constitution by not making the effort to make a reassessment of the initial interpretation first.

My current, possibly more correct, interpretation:

1) There is, in reality, a power to vote. If the Constitution is not voted by a minimum quorum, it seems that the process starts over again.

"Article 42. First Constitution The first Constitution of Asgardia shall be put for voting by Igor Ashurbeyli, the Founding Father and the Head of Nation elected at a general voting on 20 January 2017 by 167837 Asgardians (20 January 0001 in Asgardian calendar)."

"Article 43. Quorum for Adoption of the Constitution Asgardia’s Constitution shall be adopted if, in the period of the vote, more than half of the Asgardian citizens who took part in the vote, voted in favour and, for the adoption of the first Constitution, the number of persons pursuant to Article 42 of this Constitution."

2) The words "Accountability" and "Transparency" are not in the text, but the principles are:

"4. Asgardia’s Supreme Values in fulfilling its Mission are: [...] l. morality, fairness, and freedom;"

"Article 31. Legal System [...] 6. Asgardia shall recognise generally accepted international principles and norms"

3) Here I conclude that the initial interpretation I made was correct, indeed the law is not locked and change can be achieved through consensus.

"Article 44. Amendment of the Constitution Asgardia’s Constitution may be amended by means of an electronic voting by Asgardian citizens – a referendum.

Article 45. Procedure for Amendment of the Constitution Proposals on amending the Constitution may be made by the Head of Nation, the Supreme Space Council, or the Parliament."

3.a) ... In Article 32 I would just change change the definite article "the" in...

"As of the day of the acceptance of the Constitution of Asgardia, the Head of Nation holds this post for a period of 5 years

to the indefinite article "a"...

"As of the day of the acceptance of the Constitution of Asgardia, a Head of Nation holds this post for a period of 5 years"

.. because I feel this makes the statement general, for any current, or future, Head of Nation. I would feel more reassured if so.

4) About Ageism... i continue to disagree. But considering 3, and in the noble spirit I respectfully see in the whole of the Constitution, I am optimistic that this will be improved in the future)

5) In reassessment, and in the prospect of Humanity going beyond our motherland, the Earth, in a "free, unitary, and social Space Nation, which is transethnic and secular, is based on morality, fairness, peace, and the equal dignity of every human being", I, finally, have decided to embark in this beautiful journey and make mine that "We are not the best, we are the future. One humanity - one unity".

  Last edited by:  Luis Torrao (Asgardian)  on Leo 25, 01 / Jul 12, 17 15:22 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: Reassessment

Can 27, 01 / Jun 16, 17 19:59 UTC

And I will say this here too.

If the admins don't respondly quickly and properly to this and similar objections and protests, than the obvious way to proceed is for the community to setup a poll to vote against on some other web-site. Everyone can sign that poll with their asgardia username and ID in order to prove authenticity.

Leo 00, 01 / Jun 17, 17 02:48 UTC

So I seem to be one of the few to have voted 'Yes' to this; and I feel I should express why.

First; I read the proposed constitution - as opposed to jumping to conclusions based on the title 'Constitutional Monarchy' 

Lets review - For full details view Page 25 Article 32.

1) The Head of Nation (or King) can only lead until the age of 82.

2) When the Head of Nation is about to reach the Age limit; or steps down by their own will - they may nominate a single candidate to take over their position.  This along with two others nominated (Not sure how) will be voted by Parliament for the new Head of Nation.

3)Limited to Ages 50-65.

4) In premature death; Chairman of Supreme Space Council takes on temporary responsibilities until a new Head of Nation is voted upon.


While I have many issues with the standing Constitution; on this thread I will only discuss the aspects that define our 'King'

Since the Parliament is voted in representation; I'm perfectly fine with the idea of them having the role of voting for the Head of State in the various Cycles.

When I think of the History of Presidents in the United States; one thing that bothered me is the duration of the role.  Often we are promised something from one President; only to go 180 on the idea four years later.  Never really accomplishing anything due to Political Gridlock.  Having a prolonged vision for the nation to move forward may be a good thing.


Just my two sense.  (Again; tons of issues with the Constitution - And this 'King' should not be allowed to nominate either.  That seems to beg for a rigged election.  That said; I think a good leader needs more than a few years to accomplish big goals.)

  Last edited by:  Brian McCreary (Asgardian)  on Leo 00, 01 / Jun 17, 17 02:51 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Leo 00, 01 / Jun 17, 17 04:27 UTC

I can not myself agree with a monarchy I too feel we need a true democracy. I can NOT repeat NOT support the constitution as proposed because of the monarchy and such lines as this I believe go against the truly free and open expressiveness of our society.

""proposes draft laws to Parliament, signs laws adopted by Parliament, or returns them without signature with the right to enact them, and has the right to veto laws adopted by Parliament;""

No one person should have that much power in a truly representative body of people and such a worthy goal as this I have no trouble with a leader. but this leader should lead not control. this leader should not have power over the elected representative body otherwise we are starting off in a very sorry state of affairs. I know there is a lot of passion involved and rhetoric being tossed around but I truly want to give this a viable chance and hope my at least what I feel is constructive criticism is taken to heart. and when I say a leader I am not referring to one person currently elected but to Anyone put in that position. 


Leo 12, 01 / Jun 29, 17 15:12 UTC

Someone had to say it. Please support.

http://asgardia.space/en/petitions/10265-on-amendments-to-the-terminology-of-the-constitution/.

Leo 14, 01 / Jul 1, 17 10:31 UTC

Please also read and sign my petition. It directly seeks to promote more citizen participation in government.

https://asgardia.space/en/petitions/9762-promote-active-citizenship-in-asgardia/

Leo 16, 01 / Jul 3, 17 08:57 UTC

Fellow Asgardian citizens- To those hoping Supreme Leader Ashurbeyli makes an official announcement that includes EVERY Asgardian citizen regarding the changes to the constitution since it was able to be agreed upon, voting on it, those who think all citizens should be notified about dates that don't change in regard to the constitution,  and finally those who agree the method of the constitution agreement collection as well as the leadership polling should be overhauled in favor of a verifiable and trustworthy system, I saw a petition and got inspired to write the following comment which is linked below about a possible solution for all this.. We need to have solidarity on all of this and need reassurance for the various unorganized fears to be quelled in an organized manner in accordance with the spirit that encompasses Asgardia and its citizens! :

     "The entire situation may very well be a sort of a beta test for the near future. Maybe a test launch of how to best go about this groundbreaking situation and make sure the bugs are ironed out before a lot more finances get invested. We should stay united and wait to see how things progress. Maybe we could form an unofficial committee tasked with keep an eye on everything official we can locate and inform the other citizens should things not go proper. Regardless of who we are or where were from, we all share the common interest of wanting to make a difference by starting a new sort of life in space and furthering humanity. We need to stand united first and foremost. I'm not saying don't sign this petition, because I believe in individual thoughts and opinions. I do suggest we all accept the constitution and if you're worried, sign the petition as well and make your voice heard here. This needs to get off the ground. If things go well, it'll happen faster.. If things seem like they're going south, we stand together and I'm sure people will be lining up to help. If we are to be a country, our message to the world has to be unity. A surprising amount of people believe this is some sort of cult with the aim at starting a secret and separate branch of humanity and/or that this whole thing isn't real. We must stand together and do our part. Most of all, we have to believe. Believe in the reality of Asgardia and act accordingly to the point where no one can doubt its validity. We must be united in this effort!

     Once said official 'unofficial' committee is formed, the group would keep evidence of all official document changes, keep track of media events and all that is stated, etc. The committee could, say, find a lawyer (preferably a fellow Asgardian) and make sure were covered legally in case the issues aren't directly addressed to each and every  citizen, and hopefully the lawyer could make sure the citizens located  in other planet-side countries are protected by either national or  international law. If it had to go to court, surely benefactors across the world would assist us with legal fees should something this major have a need to become mainstream world news. We must be patient and show  our firm solidarity here and ensure both the safety of our future as  people of Earth and the safety of our future as citizens of Asgardia and the world view of us. I am positive that once we have this committee  formed and running, that we can inform every citizen of Asgardia what we know, what we have learned, and that we have informed our Supreme Leader Ashurbeyli of all of this and await a formal response to all. Once the committee reaches that point, we wait and then contact every citizen once again and find a really good way to put our reaction to the action or inaction of our leadership to a real vote. With advice from previously mentioned lawyers of course.

    I,  personally, very much hope any of the issues will be quelled long before it has to come down to anything so major. I hope that you all agree with me and decide to stand for Asgardia. Since its been a while and I haven't seen a lot of talk of formal organization on these message boards, aside from petitions and message boards that could probably  be edited or manipulated, I will offer my e-mail address at the end of this post or you can find me and send a message with contact info, and if you're an Asgardian citizen your Asgardian ID number, through Facebook and Twitter. I will reply with information on who else is with us and once there are at least ten of us in total we can figure  out a way to best get started and discuss what we know so far. We can start a new official 'unofficial' committee thread on the message board  as well and announce our actions and the results of our meetings, meeting dates, etc. to others there until someone has a way to obtain a complete citizen list and a means of contact. I am willing to do what it takes to unite citizens on both sides of this argument in a fair and logical manner for solidarity of the future of Asgardia. Message me and help out. We all have a responsibility to do our part! I hope to hear from you soon! This has an amazing potential and I know that we can all stand together and assure everything about Asgardia stays alive and just as promised from the start if not more!

-Email: tekzer0@protonmail.com

-Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AaronCorbitt

-Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/tekzer0

*On  the latter two, be sure to friend or add me! In the message dont forget  your contact information, Asgardian ID number, and anything else you wanna add! And no worries, I will not share any of your information whatsoever with anyone without prior permission and notice (and it'd only be something the committee has voted on prior). Since so few citizens have agreed let alone regularly visit the site, I will wait as long as it takes to get this going. Time is of the essence due to everything that is supposed to take place by years end. Thanks for taking the time to read!"

Originally typed as a reply to the petition linked below on Asgardia 16, 0001 / July 3, 2017

From: https://asgardia.space/en/petitions/6493-the-voting-system-is-a-fraud-cancel-the-voting-on-the-consitution/

Leo 22, 01 / Jul 9, 17 00:49 UTC

For me, a Constitutional Monarchy, if the power of nation head has been really restricted by its political system, is OK. 

But be aware, this vote could be distorted into “despotic monarchy OR Constitutional Monarchy". 

So how about to pay our attention into "restrict the power of ruler"? In nomine is not important, what's important is de facto

Do not worry fellow citizens, as the example of Yuan Shikai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Shikai), one can steal a country, but he can not steal people‘s voice. If one who want to “serve for the people" is smart enough, he will understand he has only two choices: swimming in people's saliva, or drown in people's blood. 


Leo 22, 01 / Jul 9, 17 19:09 UTC

@Chenarchie
At least, the world knows that, being subject to emperors, chinese people, as well as japanese too, learned a wide variety of martial arts: will we have to learn "internet kung-fu" to cope with this king? ;-)

If one who want to “serve for the people" is smart enough, he will  understand he has only two choices: swimming in people's saliva, or  drown in people's blood.

I fear the second.

Leo 23, 01 / Jul 10, 17 01:00 UTC

@Elwe Thor

So I suppose you have prepared well enough to swim in people's saliva. That is great. Not everybody have understood or heard: ”Water can load the boat, water can also turnover the boat." So we pulled tyrants from throne many times as the teaching of Mencius “I have heard of the cutting off of a robber and ruffian Zhou, never heard of the putting an honoured sovereign to death." Yes, actually you are right. We are quite experienced in this matter. 

So what are you fearing of? The one who need to fear is me, isn't it? Tomorrow morning, after I am ready to go out, then a satellite is flying above my head and "BIU~", a beam shroud me and my house. What a terrible scene! I can not even imagine how I have been evapoured from the world. 

Well, I have been scared. Shall I keep silence from now on? I have no impression...




  Last edited by:  Archie Chen (Asgardian)  on Leo 23, 01 / Jul 10, 17 01:02 UTC, Total number of edits: 3 times

Leo 23, 01 / Jul 10, 17 09:37 UTC

@Chenarchie
As you know, the world is rounded, not flat: so it's, once again, the time for China to rise, in the world. At the same time, I should say it's, once again, time for Italy... but we're not called "Italy" this time, but "Europe". ;-)
So, no need to fear at all, I think. Beams from space will probably remain into space.
Will see if space kingdoms will do the same.

  Last edited by:  Luca Coianiz (Asgardian)  on Leo 23, 01 / Jul 10, 17 09:37 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: typo

Leo 23, 01 / Jul 10, 17 14:26 UTC

Aha, I bet, you are much more optimistic about China's "rise" than Chinese, isn't you? Of course China is too large to rise. There will be only one nation which could rise and all other country must creeping under its feet —— The KINGDOM of Asgardia. 

  Last edited by:  Archie Chen (Asgardian)  on Leo 23, 01 / Jul 10, 17 14:27 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Leo 23, 01 / Jul 10, 17 14:26 UTC

Sorry for repeating. Same as last post. 

  Last edited by:  Archie Chen (Asgardian)  on Leo 23, 01 / Jul 10, 17 15:56 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Leo 23, 01 / Jul 10, 17 16:34 UTC

China is, de facto, the first world's economy at now and since at least a couple of years. Someone fears that, while others are just doing business with your country.
From my limited point of view this is only the "pendulum law" at work.
To fear this proto-kingdom I'll wait to see past the cubesat.