Apr 13, 17 / Tau 19, 01 16:07 UTC

Re: Discussion for the Constitution Table of Contents  

Am excited to find out what laws we will have that support Humanity, growth, protection. I am very excited all together and am happy to be on The Asgardia team!

Apr 14, 17 / Tau 20, 01 01:25 UTC

@LoreZyra - hmmmmmmm.... "randomly selected" would tend to rule out technocracy or meritocracy even further as that would be in opposition to the very base tenet of those particular demarcations. However that's not what we are here to do and it's not really important so let's forget we started down that track.

You are correct about the lawyers selecting and the inference is that it means the system can be usurped. That is a problem, however the basic tenet is that the pool is every citizen who hasn't disqualified themselves (for reasons of law). 

"chosen by some mysterious or incompletely defined process"  -  I was suggesting that the system be clearly and completely defined. I alluded to some possible definitions in the last paragraphs of my previous post.  I believe you have the essence of it when you suggest "civic duties" will help people build ownership.  In the case of the society Asgardia is trying to become the entire society must be maintained by everyone involved and they must believe in it and not be looking to have political dissent or everyone dies in jail or in space (when it gets that advanced).


@Guzlomi - This is exactly what I have been talking about in my last few posts.  In fact your post contains exactly the suggestion I have been edging towards.  @Yovy has been urging me to find a way to put it out here on the forum so I have been posting bits of it to gauge a response and see if I can find a way to explain it concisely.

The realities of the current and future situations preclude a lot of niceties that we have suggested simply because life cannot be "business as usual" no matter how the nation is situated. For a very very long time it can only be a few people (if any) in space and the rest living in varying political situations on Earth.  These differing political situations will create problems for a number of people (for the reasons I mentioned in a post a few days ago). This dictates that a lot of the suggestions for the standard representative politics are nonsensical.  The debates I have seen on this forum are really about ideals and not practicality. Our suggestions have been concerning utopian democracy and what is the best way to ensure it is not corrupted. As you alluded to, @Guzlomi, the first instance of any "government" in this project is by necessity going to have to be reasonably autocratic. 

My previous post mentioned a mid-term view which pictures the state owning some form of space station and the citizens dispersed in the various nations in which they live on Earth. I suggested that any position either within the governing structure or necessary to the running of the nation, be selected at random from a pool of all citizens.  Everyone get's a chance to partake of all the necessary duties involved in the running of the nation (this is where @LoreZyra got "civic duties" from).  It may be that, in the mid-term, the governing body eventually resides in space (as would be a good idea for proper representation of a space nation). In this case all eligible citizens get the opportunity to go to space.  Once there any ideals of "ruling others" are forced out of you because (a) you must rely on ground staff to support you or you will die in space (b) you may be minister of something but you also have to do the cleaning and maintenance on the space station or you will die in space.

My suggestion is that people rotate through the governing ministries perhaps progressing through the ministries to eventually becoming head of state.  This would achieve 2 additional things (a) people would be able to learn what is necessary for the running of the nation (b) continuity of projects and government would be maintained instead of a whole new group of people being placed in government with no training except the endorphin hit that comes from being the most popular.  Another suggestion to combat continuity is to have the selection of the ministers staggered so that there is always some people there to help and train the incoming people. Citizens could be selected at random from the entire pool of citizens and that appointment be for a fixed period of time.

The positions, then are not that of ruling others but that of service to a job that must be done to ensure the nation stays afloat.  Some form of direct democracy could be installed for decisions that are necessary for the nation. That is, a simple system could be set up for everyone to vote on the big decisions that affect the direction, international standing, financial decisions etc of the nation.   The whole idea is that we have to stop thinking about the state being separate to the people but actually believe the state is just the people, and that the government is not for ruling the people but is just some citizens entrusted with the responsibility to enact or complete decisions or projects already decided by the entirety of the citizens of the nation.

That's the basic outline anyway however, having submitted that to you, I find it helpful to remember:

(a) Due to current militarised thinking concerning the propulsion systems to get people in to space and the liabilities involved in accidents, currently only a state can own and launch objects into space

(b) If a nation does not want to be labelled rogue or terrorist they must be a signatory and follow the rules set out in the UN space treaty 2002

(c) Asgardia not having physical territory will cause political difficulty for citizens and other nations

(d) If the nation has any constructed object in space it will begin very small and only those with specialised training will be able to go

(e) If the space object becomes big enough to house citizens such as the governing body every person on that station must be part of and understand the essential tasks that go towards keeping it aloft in space.  Every person there must do those jobs so it doesn't matter if you are the head of state or a janitor you still have to be part of doing the jobs that keep it running.

(f) In the first instance this project is the idea of the founders and it is them who have put the money and effort into it. To ensure it goes according to plan it must by necessity be run in a fairly authoritarian manner like a project manager. This most likely will be for a fixed period, however at first, positions must be by appointment and rather technocratic.

Further, our suggestions  (even the one I have described above), as @guzlomi is saying, have been more about the perfect utopian democracy rather than thinking about the practicality of what the good doctor is trying to achieve.  We need to stay on track and that requires feedback (not from the volunteers but from the founders - sorry all you guys no insult intended I respect your enthusiasm and the work you are trying to do) to ensure we fully understand the intent and direction of the founders. This does not preclude helping them to change their ideas if it is beneficial to all.


  Last edited by:  Paul Bellamy (Asgardian)  on Apr 16, 17 / Tau 22, 01 02:15 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Apr 15, 17 / Tau 21, 01 12:47 UTC

@BigRed,

I'm in agreement with you and I suspect we share the same thought process in our approach to this adventure. 

I am quick to consider the devil's advocate (of sorts) when it comes to proposal of rules and law. So, it's not that I may misunderstand your point. It's that points can be twisted in unintended consequences. These I feel the need to point out. However, I must agree that we should be practical in our thinking for setting up a new Space Nation.

Time is quickly closing the doors on current thread. We can only wait, anxiously, for feedback. Until the next phase opens its doors, we must practice our patience.

  Last edited by:  Richie Bartlett (Asgardian)  on Apr 15, 17 / Tau 21, 01 12:50 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: Added clarification.

Apr 16, 17 / Tau 22, 01 22:28 UTC

I like it, it seems very complete 

Apr 17, 17 / Tau 23, 01 17:36 UTC

English: I'm agree with the Constitution Table of Contents and Declaration of Unity, but the point 9 and 12 are confused. About point 9, Asgardia must be a democracy, so how people will participate in Asgardia's government? In relation to point 12: the Humanity must not forget the history, because we can not repeat the past mistakes. Also, I think that we should add the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to our Constitution. Thank you.

Español: Estoy de acuerdo con la Tabla de Contenidos de la Constitución y con la Declaración de Unidad, pero los puntos 9 y 12 son confusos. Sobre el punto 9, Asgardia debe ser una democracia, entonces ¿cómo participará la gente en el gobierno de Asgardia? En relación al punto 12: la humanidad no debe olvidar la historia, porque no podemos repetir los errores del pasado. También, pienso que deberíamos añadir la Declaración Universal de los Derechos Humanos a nuestra Constitución. Gracias.

  Last edited by:  Sergio Garcia (Asgardian)  on Apr 17, 17 / Tau 23, 01 17:56 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Apr 18, 17 / Tau 24, 01 12:08 UTC

so far so good.

@96yeyo

Declaration of Unity

about 12,

i think it's more about

not taking prejudices from the past into the new society.

Apr 18, 17 / Tau 24, 01 14:24 UTC

>> about 12, i think it's more about not taking prejudices from the past into the new society.

"When one doesn't learn from history, one is doomed to repeat it."

BRK

Apr 20, 17 / Tau 26, 01 12:33 UTC

The structure of the table for Asgardian Constitution is OK with me. I am eager of reading the content.

  Last edited by:  Juan Guerrero (Asgardian)  on Apr 20, 17 / Tau 26, 01 12:34 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Apr 20, 17 / Tau 26, 01 13:05 UTC

I will resolutely uphold the decrees of the leaders and abide by them.

Apr 21, 17 / Tau 27, 01 10:11 UTC

I like the Constitution. What kind of security service do you think in this article Chapter V. Security-Article 24. Security Services and Systems

Apr 21, 17 / Tau 27, 01 12:24 UTC

I think the Constitution Table of Contents is very well but, I suppose all the contents will protect in general all the individual members no matter how our personal matters will be. I fell a little confused about this matter? Can some one explan this to me? Thanks Lola

Apr 21, 17 / Tau 27, 01 12:52 UTC

@ LoreZyra,

I have been away from this thread for a while, but it seems you and I may have come across a common thought about the likely system of government that Asgardia may end up with - Corporatocracy. As I see it, all the signs are pointing towards this:

  1. The economic reality that for Asgardia to physically exist in space (at least in the short to medium term), it will need access to a large and consistent cash flow through, say, mineral extraction from asteroids, orbital energy generation, technology development, etc.
  2. The need for a considerably sized and skilled workforce to enable the economic activities to undertaken, along with the activities to sustain human live in a space habitat(s).
  3. The resource reality that there will be little to no room for "dead weight".
  4. The preference that seems to have been expressed by the overwhelming majority of people on the forum that the state provide housing, food, water, healthcare and education to all its citizens universally.
  5. The take it or leave it approach to the constitution vote - that sounds a lot like the choice you have when confronted with a business contract... with a lot less negotiation.

Corporatocracy ticks all of these boxes - a citizenry that voluntarily signs up to an agreement to provide labour and/or skills to the state in return for housing, food, healthcare, education and security. It has the potential to draw from the best of both systems (communism and capitalism) but equally the potential to draw on the worst.

  Updated  on Apr 22, 17 / Gem 00, 01 05:39 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Apr 21, 17 / Tau 27, 01 21:46 UTC

@Scarbs

I was thinking the same thing. I don't see it working any other way, which could lead us down a very dangerous road if not handled the right way. Especially if we are using a currency in Asgardia that won't be worth anything elsewhere. Reminiscent of early mining towns. Can't afford to leave. Stuck. Forever. 

Don't get me wrong, the idea of a globally unified state excites me; but there are so many ways it could go wrong. I guess we just wait and see. 

Apr 22, 17 / Gem 00, 01 08:31 UTC

@JasonRainbow

If you are alluding to a slavery type arrangement, what I am envisioning is distinctly different.

In a corprotocracy,  it is the choice of an individual to sign up as a "citizen employee" of the corporate state for a set term. The individual can terminate their services / citizenship prior to the end of the term, subject to penalties. Similalrly, the state can immediately terminate citizenship for various reasons (including criminal acts) in a far more expedient manner than a criminal justice system.

It is essentially a very large business that provides all the necessary services to its citizens, who also happen to be contracted employees.

  Updated  on Apr 22, 17 / Gem 00, 01 08:31 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Apr 23, 17 / Gem 01, 01 21:21 UTC

I like it all the Contents in our Constitution. And I hope that our country comes to defender this planet and the humanity and all animals.