May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 00:16 UTC

Re: Discussion of the draft Constitution part two.  

"2:5.1 At the time of its foundation, Asgardia’s territory is the digitised noosphere, a

digital state with living citizens on Earth, which exists on a near-Earth orbit

in the form of a single satellite or an orbital satellite constellation." Do not use a presentence or past grammar on this, well don't even have it here, have it in the history of Asgardia section in the historybooks. When it comes to sending up satellites, what are we going to use those for? Secure communication between Asgardians with free internet access? Or is it going to take pictures from low earth so that we know where earth is?


Scrap the whole article 2:5.1 & 2 & 3  as it is stating what we are going to do, anyone thinking of the ones reading in 100-1000 years from now? Either thinking that the creators where really stupid or they being stupid and using it as a cerimony every year launching satellites into low orbit....


"2:5.7 Asgardia uses adjacent territories (hard surfaces, subsurface resources,

oceans, atmospheres, space, celestial bodies) in accordance with generally

recognised international principles and norms, as well as international

treaties to which it is a party" Good so what is the international standards? What happens when they are lost?



"3:1 Any resident of Earth over the age of 16 who agrees to Asgardia’s Declaration

of Unity and Constitution and consciously submits his/her digital personal

data to Asgardia’s Space Database may become an Asgardian citizen. " Submits their personal data? And why only earth? Weren't everyone equally valued? Why is everyone thinking one world? DO YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND THAT THIS STATEMENT COULD LEAD TO WAR IN THE FUTURE?!


"3:2" Once again, what if we get recognized internationally in like 5 years or 10 or 20 then we will have dual citizenship right? Why is this statement in the constitution?


"3:3" So any child born now by a member is hereby an Asgardian by LAW?!  Looking at 3:2 looking back at 3:3. Some thinking may have been used here....


"3:4" You are hereby a citizen of Asgardia, welcome to the spaceship that only holds Asgardians, oh, you stole an apple, you are hereby revoked of your citizenship and are not legally occupying the ship, you are sentenced to be dropped of at the nearest non Asgardian location, which is space, bye! *flushed out*


"3:7.1 Asgardian citizens have the right of free movement in Asgardian localities

and the right to choose their location in Earth nations" So once again, earth, also I have some open statements to talk about here, seems like this is meant to be a fixed hole to use in case of fire, when Asgardia is internationally recognized then it will be possible to, well laundry corrupt or stolen money through the state affairs , and flee to whatever country they chose to. For an example.


If we are to give everyone the same rights, why not try to overwrite every other countries laws so that the Asgardians cannot be touched without causing problems with the nations on earth, that way we could probably get more citizens.


"3:8.4 Key Citizen Rights and Freedoms" Who are the KEY citizens? Central rights & freedoms of the Asgardian citizens, sounds fair right?


"3:8.5 If the state infringes on the rights of an Asgardian citizen, he/she has the right

to seek legal protection in court" How is this court set up?

"3:9.5 Asgardian citizens must pay lawfully established taxes and levies." Sure, when does this start and should we like have double taxation upon our countries money as we are not citizens of dual citizenship.. :S Since when did a taxation system work, if there is not going to be a change for this, then at least let every one pay the taxation as a normal bill. And have Direct democracy, and then see what will be done with the money as everyone will start to understand the sums that goes to the government.


"3:9.6 Asgardian citizens have the right and obligations to participate in elections and

referenda. Systematic derogation of this duty may lead to legal consequences

in accordance with the law. " It should only be an obligation to atleast vote blank.


"3:9.10 Failure to perform citizen obligations or failure to perform them properly

may lead to permanent revocation of Asgardian citizenship, suspension of

Asgardian citizenship, fines, restriction and/or permanent revocation of access

to Asgardia’s electronic resources in accordance with the law of Asgardia. The

death penalty is prohibited in Asgardia. The creation of prisons is prohibited

in Asgardia. " So electronic dictatorship in the workings? I understand that everyone is needed to be in the worksquad, but what happens in the case of sickness?  Or in a accident, or if there is no work to be done?


"3:10.5 The state guarantees that its aims, plans, development forecasts, as well as

threats and risks to its development, will be publicly disclosed." To what degree? If it is not in development, it is not needed to be disclosed.


"3:10.6  The state must establish Asgardia’s public opinion and take it into account

when making administrative decisions in accordance with the law of Asgardia." So is it going to be a dictator direct democrazyship? You can't save the cookie and eat it at the same time. It should be looked upon once again.


"4:11.2 Asgardia uses its own material, financial and other resources to ensure free

access to distance learning, professional qualifications, scientific and creative

work for Asgardian citizens." Is this going to be based on earth basics or are we going to do like the americans and go imperical.


"4:11.3 Asgardian citizens have a guaranteed right to free time for self-development

and self-improvement, creative and cultural pursuits" So what is self improvement? By cultural is meant that also religion is added right, so I can spend hours meditating? It's up to the interpitation.


"4:11.5 The state supports Asgardian citizens in leading healthy lifestyles." So then you should support VEGANISM as this should be the most healthy lifestyle or are we going to have slaughterhouses in space to?  


"4:12.3 Asgardia’s natural resources may be exclusively state property, the property of

state-owned companies, public-private property, private property, personal

property, as well as other property under the law of Asgardia." The water hereby costs 35 credits per centilitres, the state decrees that it is necessary for our survival...


"4:13.1 Asgardia’s sovereign financial resources comprise state and private finance.

Arbitrary seizure of private financial resources is prohibited." Good, but a while ago it was stated that the money could be stopped if you where not producing. How does this not cross paths?


"4:13.2 Asgardia’s currency is the Gor." WHAT WAS WRONG WITH ASGARDIAN CREDITS? AC for short, would it start a new millenium bug?


"4:13.4 Asgardia’s National Bank is responsible for the exchange rate, issue and

circulation of finance, stability of the sovereign currency and bank system

liquidity. Asgardia’s National Bank is regulated by the law of Asgardia." As I wrote earlier, no money for the people, every citizen generate currency so that the nation can exchange products with earth, but everything should be free for the citizens, that releases both the stress of not being able ta have the seaweed or porridge on the table and stops greed and ensures equality to the people. The bank could as easily be an AI in the future, making all the necissary exchanges.


I have still not understood the whole science fiction "ideal parameters to the moon" thing.


"4:13.9 Asgardia’s National Bank facilitates the development of a banking system for

state-owned and private banks, regulates their operations and profitability.

The state guarantees bank secrecy. Bank secrecy may not be restricted by the

law of Asgardia or international " So? It is basically a new theft machine set in motion? People are not in the need to be governed by a bank, when we have a crypto currency there is no need for a bank, thinking of bitcoins....


"4:13.7 Asgardia guarantees the rights of authors, inventors and users of intellectual

property in harmony and balance. " Asgardia should have their own patent system, where it instead of making it banned for anyone to use the ideas it should be open for improvements and implementations for everyone. Greed is not going to help anyone.


Reading the rest, not going to lay my voice to the rest. Much of the rest was good, my biggest concerns are the bank, currency, and the taxation and oldschool system.



May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 00:17 UTC

My conclusion is that some of the things needs to be written for the future from the start and I do understand that this is a draft , there should also be a reorder of everything much of it makes sense later on, not directly. The constitution needs to have the basic strong constitution and the laws should not be in it, they should be in a whole own document and that also goes for the guidelines for citizenship, territory etc.  A constitution is the base structure, it should be strong and small, so that there is not much room for different interpretations.  I am also very sorry for my English which is basic but understandable. Which the constitution also should be.


May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 02:27 UTC

It seems fair people are expected to pay taxes just as they are now once a station is actually built. The age for the government positions is a bit high though, I don't think it would properly represent everyone considering the various ages. I'm not sure about the monarchy because they don't always work though I can see some "checks and balances" with the other branches like Parliament, Judiciary and the Royal Council of Supreme Values.


May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 03:01 UTC

Hi Everyone,

I want to thank everyone for their comments and contributions to this discussion. The compilation team has added all of your comments and concerns into a single document that will be submitted to the LEGAL team and translators. 

May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 03:20 UTC

Looking forward to read the new draft, Lore.

May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 07:35 UTC

I want to add, in addition to criticism, some positive suggestions. 

To stop walking on the old rake (kings, presidents, etc.), I offer the following.

  • - The Head of State is the Operator of Asgardia. The period of performance of Operator duties by the head of state is called duty. (Thus, the Head of state – not an autocrat and a temporary duty of the responsible state).

  • - The operator is elected by the citizens of Asgardia for the period of the next duty of the citizens of Asgardia , by universal online voting using a standard qualification mechanisms Asgardia to determine the fair value of each voice. (I have previously written separately).

  • - For the period of the duty Operator may not combine political, economic, scientific, cultural or other functions of Asgardia or other Nations and communities of the Earth that can cause a conflict of interest.

  • - The operator holds a position with the appropriate professional and personal qualities, experience and qualifications, physical and mental health necessary to perform its responsibilities defined at the stage of nomination of candidates on the basis of testing using standard qualification mechanisms Asgardia (as defined by the relevant legal acts). Before the testing phase, the candidates (including self) is not restricted to any qualification (age, education, ect.).

  • - A routine procedure is the election of the Operator for the calendar period of duty defined by relevant legal act. In extreme circumstances, require special skills, allowed early termination of duty of the incumbent Operator and elect a new Operator on short-term duty to resolve operational problems through universal Express election with respect to the use of typical instruments of conformity. After solving operational tasks resumed the practice of duty in a routine manner. (Now, at the stage of formation of statehood, the current Operator of Asgardia is Dr. Igor Ashurbeyli).

  • - Duty of Operator may be terminated in connection with the deterioration of his physical or mental health, excluding the possibility of qualitative execution of obligations of the Operator.

  • - A citizen of Asgardia can take the position of Operator unlimited number of times, but not more than one duty in a row.

  • - Any change in the Constitution or other legal acts, involving changes in the status and powers of the Operator taken in period of duty incumbent Operator, will come into effect only with the next duty.

Well, somehow like this.

  Last edited by:  Dmitry Novoseltsev (Asgardian)  on May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 09:55 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times

May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 09:08 UTC

Some more considerations.

I would like in principle to exclude any age limit, replacing it with the relevant test personal and professional qualities.

People can apply for citizenship at any age. If he/she is aware of what it is, and could this request to formulate – so it's a conscious choice. With the exception of the person of a minor by the standards of the state of residence, parents or guardians who are not citizens of Asgardia – it requires their formal consent.

People can take part in any vote and run for any position – the cost of his/her voice or the degree of conformity of a position to which he aspires, is determined by objective testing. Here there is very large scatter in both directions from the calendar age. To an average of 18-21 years are not sufficiently developed neuropsychiatric functions of braking – but this is not always true. With adequate assessment procedures personal options any age restrictions redundant.

A person can hold the position for as long as he/she is willing and able to take. All "mythological heroes" of my late childhood – Drake, Dyson, Kardashev, Leonov are still actively working. Actually, quite a motivated person finally goes with his/her favorite work only in the cemetery. Looking ahead (this is not in the Constitution), I note – I think that in Asgardia should not be such modern practices as old-age pension, only for health reasons. Someone, unfortunately, that from infancy, and someone, in old age completely healthy (moreover, it is assumed that "Asgardian" work mostly does not involve digging ditches with a shovel by hand).

The same principle (again, looking ahead, to the individual legal act) in respect of the family. Readiness for sexual relationships, and especially childbearing is determined by the physical and psychophysical development, and here needed to formally set the lower age limit. But the creation of the family as the cohabitation and joint activities in shared interests with the adoption of mutual responsibility, the lower age boundary is not required – only the degree of psychological readiness. Some people are already from adolescence to realize that make up the best pair.

In general, the basis of the legislation of Asgardia in this sense, it is advisable to put the principle: "Has the right one who is able".

Propose any options of age limits, both minimum and maximum, of the Constitution and other legal acts should be deleted as redundant and discriminatory.

May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 09:11 UTC

And it is time, starting with this Constitution, to take "Asgardian English" a neutral pronoun to describe the person at all, to replace all these bureaucratic "he/she".

May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 16:27 UTC

Querzion and Dmitry Novoseltsev have some excellent ideas towards the draft Constitution and most I agree with.  I have three major issues with the draft as it sits, and I'll be brief:

1.  Monarchy and age limits.   Having the Space Nation of Asgardia be a Monarchy implies different, and unequal, classes of citizenship. I believe position and responsibility for governing should be available to all citizens depending on their abilities, interest, professional qualifications and effectiveness.  "Royal" has many implied connotations and could easily be exploited by the right personality.  I do NOT want Asgardia to evolve into a "Space Empire!"  Checks-and-balances against subverting the intent of the Constitution could too easily be circumvented as Asgardia expands and communication and information delays become a significant factor.

There should be a minimum age limit for higher offices, as age often implies maturity and wisdom, however it should not 50-years old.  In many countries citizens are eligible to fight and die for their terrestrial nations at 17- or 18-yo.  In the USA, for example, the minimum age for president is 35.  Age limits should be consistant throughout all offices except for Head of State.  I know of many early 20- to 30-somethings managing multi-billion dollar companies with 10's-of-thousands of employees. Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook and Elon Musk of Tesla/SpaceX are a couple of examples.  I'm sure they could effectively handle a Space Nation.  A conversational exchange from a favorite movie of mine ("Down Periscope") comes to mind:  "Aren't you a little young for this, Marty?"  "Excellence knows no age, Sir!"

2.  International Space Law.  Asgardia is intended to be a space-faring nation.  Space and the universe is vast...should a group of planet-bound nations on a single planet dictate what should happen on the Moon, or Mars, or the Solar System, the Milky Way, etc.?  As it sits right now, international treaty states that a private citizen cannot own property on the moon.  Heck, private individuals cannot even own land on Antarctica.  I want to own my own asteroid someday and I do not want some terrestrial nation exercising "eminent domain" over what my work accomplishes.

3. Currency.  I STRONGLY object to to Gor as the official name and denomination of Asgardian currency. Just google "gor as currency" and nearly all of the hits are based upon a sci-fi/fantasy novel series by John Norman in which females are natural slaves and property.  Do we really want our money to have such connotations?  As mentioned above, the AC (Asgardian Credit) should be a widely accepted and reasonable option.

More thoughts on things later as I delve further, but those immediately come to mind.

Cheers!

  Last edited by:  George Osborne (Asgardian)  on May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 16:39 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times
Reason: Spelling

May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 16:34 UTC

According to message from  LoreZyra: 

"The compilation team has added all of your comments and concerns into a  single document that will be submitted to the LEGAL team and  translators. "

we should wait for a new draft, and discussion of the old one is not an efficient work. I hope that voting date will be shifted, constitution is not that thing with which we should hurry.

May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 20:48 UTC

The French version of the official Constitution is now on line.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the very top priority of the core team is to first produce the draft Constitution in all 13 official languages, this before the June 18 deadline. This is not a small task and they may be under a lot of pressure.

Hopefully, the discussion and feedback will begin after this has been achieved, if enough time remains before the vote.

 PS: Again, I am having problems with the Captcha? None of my previous posts has been accepted on the first try although I am quite sure that I typed in the correct characters. Is there a problem with the server?

May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 21:14 UTC

Articles 32 and 33 as currently drafted are a deal-breaker for me.  I have lots of comments on the rest, but not worth getting into unless the balance of power is addressed, more checks and balances introduced and generally the constitution made more democratic.  The powers of the Head of State are too great, and open to abuse.  The Royal Council of Supreme Values is to my mind an unnecessary and very sinister body.  Unless there are fundamental revisions, I'm out.    

May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 21:54 UTC

@Dmitry Novoseltsev
And it is time, starting with this Constitution, to take "Asgardian  English" a neutral pronoun to describe the person at all, to replace all  these bureaucratic "he/she".

I agree on that very much.
I propose to adopt, into the Basic language @LoreZyra proposed as official one, "ehs" as the neutral pronoun.
I'm not that strong in grammar so I'm sure others will find something better.

May 30, 17 / Can 10, 01 00:01 UTC

Precisamos seguir no sentido da Sabedoria, e não deixar a Vaidade nos Confundir, e os Orgulhos nos Destruir, não podemos deixar que Asgardia vire uma Mentalidade igual a dos Cidadãos da Terra, Temos que colocar os Sentidos no Lugar, como que, qualquer Desvio Independente quais Categorias Sejas, Implementar, Sim e Não, pois só assim seriamos Justos, e Justo, seria a nossa Justiça. ''Refletir e Filosofar''. No que se refere a Constitucional na Asgardia,

We need to follow in the sense of wisdom, and not let vanity confuse us, and prides destroy us, we cannot let Asgard turn into a mentality equal to the citizens of the Earth, we have to put the senses in place, like that, any independent deviation which categories are, implement, yes and no, because only so would we be fair, and fair, would be our justice. ' ' Reflect and philosophize ' '. As regards constitutional in the Asgard,

  Last edited by:  Shane Watt (Asgardian, Global Mod)  on May 30, 17 / Can 10, 01 02:55 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: bing translation, 05/29/17 shane watt

May 30, 17 / Can 10, 01 01:30 UTC

He/ she  Him /Her Why not just use They or Them To make a new noun is silly and so earth political correct 

Every one speaks about wanting to be different ,But just keep going on being the same doing the same things