May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 03:45 UTC

Re: Discussion of the draft Constitution  

@Jason Rainbow

<<I've been trying to find the conversation that took place with Dr. De Winne on Facebook for you but have only been able to find any ( with the exception of this one>>

Thanks for the effort. Surprisingly, I have been able to access the content of the Web page, although .I do not have a Facebook account. When, a few days ago, I tried the feedback link on the page
     https://asgardia.space/en/page/chronicles/Asgardia-Constitution-Draft
I got an obtrusive pop-op with the message "To see more from Asgardia on Facebook, log in or create an account.".  

<<that does not really answer any questions>>

I agree. No justification for any of the contentious points of the draft Constitution.

<<he topic of discussion should still focus on the "official" draft.>> 

Thank you for the precision.

-=*=- 

@LoreZyra 

<<I invite you and everyone to discuss the points of my draft here [...]>> 

I will. Thank you. Is it possible to obtain your full text in pdf form? I have right-clicked and downloaded your AsgardiaConstitutionProposal.txt file and it is full of formatting commands. I have also tried just clicking on the link. The screen I get is free form HTML commands but I need to scroll right and left to be able to read the long lines. If producing a pdf file is too much of a problem, please do not waste time with this. I will then just return to your posts and make pdf captures of the screens.

-=*=-

@Elwe Thor 

<<discussions (and votations) will be about the current (so called) "draft">>

Not having seen any comments or replies by members of the core team does lead to the impression that they are not following what is being said here. Some justifications for a Constitutional Monarchy would have been nice.


  Last edited by:  Andre Ratel (Asgardian)  on May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 03:52 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 04:00 UTC

@Andre Ratel on 27 May 2017, 3:45 a.m.

I prefer not to deal with changing to other formats as TXT format is universal. However, I do have a link to show it in raw text without any HTML. (I suspect your browser is not correctly handling the URI properly.)

https://raw.githubusercontent.com/lorezyra/Asgardia.Government/master/Asgardia.Constitution.Proposal.txt 

Let me know if this is better for you?

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 04:10 UTC

Actually, further to my previous comments, would it be better (admitidly not easier) to vote almost line by line of the constitution with the options of 'yes' 'no, please edit because ___' and 'no, please remove' 

This would give us the real time needed to perfect and understand what we are voting for and allow us to focus piece by piece on what the people actually want.

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 04:22 UTC

OK. Here are all my comments on the official draft. I tried to post this text last weekend but the server refused it because I exceeded the maximum amount of characters. I am trying here to abridge it a bit. Sorry for the repetitions with my earlier posts.

Chapter 1 , p. 4
     "based on the birthright of Man in the universe"  
replaced by something less human-centric such as
     "based on the birthright of all sentient life in the universe"  
The Universe is quite a big place and mankind is probably not the most intelligent species habiting it. So I would suggest a little more modesty. I consider it the birthright of all sentient being to try to survive, explore the environment, learn from experience and evolve in the direction of its choice.

Chapter 1, p. 4
     "3. Any resident of Earth can become a citizen of Asgardia, as long as he assents in the [...]"
replaced by
     "as long as he or she {...}"

Chapter 1, p. 4
     "To ensure the protection of planet Earth and the entire humankind (from outer space threats);"
replaced by
    "the protection of planet Earth and all its life forms"

Chapter 2, Article 2, p. 5
     "Asgardia is a Constitutional Monarchy"
Why a monarchy? A monarchy is a relic of medieval feodalism, when the value of a person depended on the rank and status of the parents. I suggest Constitutional Monarchy be replaced by Constitutional Meritocracy (or Democratic Meritocracy) which is, in my view, what is being described in Article 32, Paragraphs 5 and 8 and also in Article 33, Paragraph 4.

Chapter 2, Article 4, Paragraph 4b  
     "b) protection of Earth and all of humanity from Space-originating threats;"
I would prefer "protection of planet Earth and all its inhabitants".

Chapter 3, Article 6, Paragraph 2
     "2. Space citizenship of Asgardia is a special type of citizenship and does not constitute dual or second citizenship for the purposes of Earth nation citizenship. A citizen
          of an Earth nation becoming a space citizen does not confer multiple citizenship status unless otherwise stipulated by an international treaty to which Asgardia is a
          party."
As I understand this, an Asgardian citizen will only acquire double (or multiple) citizenship when Asgardia is recognized as a state in an international treaty. Am I correct on this?

Chapter 3, Article 9, Paragraph 4, p. 10
     "5. Asgardian citizens must pay lawfully established taxes and levies."
Taxes on revenues obtained from the Asgardian economy would be paid to Asgardia whereas taxes on revenues obtained from another country's economy would be paid to the govenment of the country (as required by the laws of the country). Am I right on this?

Chapter 3, Article 9, Paragraph 9, p. 10
     "9. Asgardian citizens must make a contribution to the creation of Asgardia’s resources to ensure the common good that is commensurate with their ability to do so."
I am eager to see the kind of (scientific) work will be available in the Asgardian economy.

Chapter 4, Article 11 on Human Resources, p. 12
Beautifully expressing the reasons why I joined the Asgardia project.

Chapter 4, Article 13, Paragraph 2
     "2. Asgardia’s currency is the Gor."
I suppose the details on this have yet to be determined.

Chapter 4, Article 13, Paragraph 2
     "5. Asgardia’s sovereign currency is issued by the National Bank in the amount tied to the ideal parameters of the Moon set by a special law of Asgardia."
What does "ideal parameters of the Moon" means?

Chapter 4, Article 14 on Scientific Resources, p. 14
Another great article.

Chapter 7, Article 22, Paragraph 5, p. 18
     "that is harmful to morality"
replaced by  
     "that is harmful to natural morality"
natural morality being understood as not hurting anyone (physically or psychologically)and providing help when possible to someone in distress.

Chapter 7, Article 26, Paragraph 2
     "2. Asgardia’s national symbols are chosen via a referendum [..]"
Could transcripts of the proposed national anthems be made available before the referendum?  

Chapter 8, Article 32, Paragraph 2, p. 24
     "2. When dealing with other heads of state, Asgardia’s Head of State may also be referred to as the President, Monarch, King and otherwise in accordance with protocol  
           depending on the other party."
Monarch and king are outdated attributes. They are usually acquired by birthright and transmissible from one generation to the next.

Chapter 8, Article 32, Paragraph 4, p. 24
     "4. The maximum age limit for the Head of State position is 75 years."
Although this does not seem too unreasonable, some may consider this as  ageism.

Chapter 8, Article 32, Paragraph 5, p. 24
      "5. One year prior to reaching the age limit or in the event of a voluntary resignation, the Head of State nominates a candidate for the position of Head of State on a
            hereditary or other basis.[...]"
I would remove "on a hereditary or other basis". This is too suggestive of feudalism.

Chapter 8, Artilce 32, Paragraph 11, p. 25
     "11. The Head of State enjoys immunity and is granted a lifetime guarantee of personal safety and the safety of his/her property after leaving the role."
Here, I disagree. In case of gross fraud or corruption, no one should be immune from justice. On the other hand, there could be some form of protection against prosecutions resulting from an erroneous decision made in good faith but leading to some damages.

Chapter 8, Article 32, Paragraph 12g, p. 25
     "g) grants clemency;"
replaced by
     "g) grants clemency, except in cases of crimes against humanity,and clemency subjected to approval by Parliament and by Council of Supreme Values;"

Chapter 8, Article 34, Paragraph 3, p. 27
     "3. Members of Parliament are elected for terms of five years from among Asgardian citizens who have reached the age of 50."
Any justification for this minimum age of 50? Ageism, again!

Note:
Many of these critiques have already been expressed by others. I am sorry for the repetitions.

  Last edited by:  Andre Ratel (Asgardian)  on May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 04:29 UTC, Total number of edits: 3 times
Reason: paragraph reformatting

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 04:24 UTC

11. Asgardia is a country of free spirit, science and internationalism. At the same time, every Asgardian can freely practice any religion on Earth.

What if there are request for  Houses of  Prayer ?


  Last edited by:  Prajogi Iskandar (Asgardian)  on May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 04:25 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 04:44 UTC


Article 24,

3..In order to preserve humanity and Earth’s biodiversity, Asgardia organises and ensures the building of Space Arks, defensive platforms in space to be used in the event of threats to the safety of humanity on Earth and for space tourism in the absence of threats.

How about the collection of   earthly specimen on Biological and Plant ,like : DNA of all the living things, Type Culture and Collection (like ATCC ), Phytochemical  Reference Standard collection and many others like fossils, you name it.


May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 04:49 UTC

@Elanexus(Asgardian) on 27 May 2017, 4:10 a.m.

Actually, further to my previous comments, would it be better (admitidly not easier) to vote almost line by line of the constitution with the options of 'yes' 'no, please edit because ___' and 'no, please remove'
This would give us the real time needed to perfect and understand what we are voting for and allow us to focus piece by piece on what the people actually want.

Aside from lack of knowledge and experience, I don'T see why we can't use a platform like GitHub to make that happen... YOu can easily comment on specific parts of any text without changing the original document... For example, see here: https://github.com/lorezyra/Asgardia.Government/pull/1

  Last edited by:  Richie Bartlett (Asgardian)  on May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 04:51 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 04:51 UTC

@LoreZyra on 27 May 2017, 4 a.m 

<< (I suspect your browser is not correctly handling the URL properly.) >>

Probably. I am using an old version of Chrome.

<< Let me know if this is better for you? >>

This text is easier to read. Thank you. I will look at it during the weekend and will post my comments on the Which Constitution forum. 


  Last edited by:  Andre Ratel (Asgardian)  on May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 04:55 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times
Reason: reformatting

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 05:10 UTC

@Ogee Prayogee(Asgardian) on 27 May 2017, 4:44 a.m

<< How about the collection of   earthly specimen on Biological and Plant ,like : DNA of all the living things, Type Culture and Collection (like ATCC ), Phytochemical  Reference Standard collection and many others like fossils, you name it. >>

I think the draft Constitution expresses this but in more general terms. From Article 14, Paragraph 4 (p. 14):

"4. Asgardia creates and stores in orbit and on celestial bodies a Databank of biological materials from Earth."


  Last edited by:  Andre Ratel (Asgardian)  on May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 05:16 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 06:23 UTC

I feel put off by the term "Constitutional monarchy". With our technology and thought power, I belive that the traditional forms of government are out dated. As a collective society we should agree what laws and assignments should be past without a focal point of power. As that has led to Earth's current condition.

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 06:52 UTC

I must say reading over this draft I am very unimpressed. It's far too vague and many sections reference a compulsory implication on laws and ideals that aren't even in place yet.

Furthermore, there are several contradictions within the constitution. One being that there is to be no politics in Asgardia but there is to still be a government (not quite possible). A second, and this is big, it is prohibited to speak negatively of the Supreme values. This is undermining the ability to develop a government's values and more importantly it undermines the basic human right of the freedom of speech.

There are many more issues that i see others have voices their opinions of and i sincerely hope we can develop this draft much more in order to produce a fair constitution for what I hope to be a very successful nation.

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 08:44 UTC

i'm shocked. Constitutional monarchy and all the unbalanced power in one person in Asgardia? With no limited power? Sorry but no. The most people don't want the same problems like in the past or in other countrys right now. All in the constitution dealing with the gov is like "explain the rights, tell that the head of nation can overrule it without a problem"... I'm very disappointed about it.

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 11:27 UTC

At the moment Asgardia needs an official document that defines its government. Because government is all that will be apparent on the face of the earth. Your citizens will not be sent into space, they will continue to live in our countries of origin. Where every country already has a constitution, which we respect. "You can not serve two masters." The consequences have already been pointed out. Then make a constitution that defines the government, that is enough.

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 13:57 UTC

There should be an article at the end of the document, in Chapter 10. 

"Article x. Splinter provisions

Physical battles in space are more deadly than on Earth (even a tiny hole in a shuttle can lead to depressurisation). A group of people may request recognition independence from Asgardia and recognition as a nation by Asgardia, provided that such motion is supported by a majority in a people's referendum, and that the group signs a treaty of non-agression with Asgardia. This will help minimise eventual physical damages and armed revolutions. "

  Last edited by:  John Skieswanne (Asgardian)  on May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 14:06 UTC, Total number of edits: 3 times

May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 14:22 UTC

Continuing the theme, I would like to express an opinion on the question of interest almost all - about taxes. 

It is rather difficult. Among the goals of Asgardia the declared equality of citizens. Actually, quite convincingly statistically proven (for example here: https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resources/the-spirit-level) that a society is the less suffers from various vices and even more safely than less inequality, and the closer it is to real communism. However, the problem of Asgardia is the source of considerable initial inequality of its citizens. What would be fair taxation, for example, a successful lawyer from Western Europe and the mother of many children from Central Africa? Especially if the latter gets a natural labor pay in the form of a sack of potatoes. 

Obviously, the fixed amount is a mockery of the greater part of the citizens, because the bulk of the population generally has a much lower income level than the so-called "Golden billion". Flat tax scale would be less mockery, because at low levels of income is important even small amount. Progressive scale of taxation, particularly with a large multiplying factor, by contrast, is a mockery already over wealthy citizens – they do not have to sponsor all the others, especially because they are usually more qualified and are directly involved in the provision of space activities. Residence rights in more silt less economically prosperous environment – usually not his fault and not his credit, that's a given for this task. 

Somewhere in the discussion at the forum was the proposal to introduce a tax only for residents of the localities of Asgardia. Consider this a bad idea – first of all, now no localities is actually there, and secondly, is discrimination based on place of residence – these people are also not obligated to sponsor all the others.

I see the following solution to the problem. 

To the Constitution needs to be included about the following thesis: "The taxes of Asgardia charged solely only with incomes of Asgardian citizens, derived from their activities in the interests of Asgardia and using its infrastructure".

To clarify.

People that support Asgardia, obviously, in any case, plan to engage in activities related to the fulfillment of its tasks. Given the task of preventing space threats, one of the directions are aimed at detecting anomalies in large data (asteroids, space debris, instability of solar activity, fires, etc.) – those are bad to solve modern computers and even artificial neural networks, but easily solved by people, starting from preschool age. To participate in such projects Asgardia only need access to the Internet and computer technology. Such programs already operate on a voluntary basis. Another direction is the participation in distributed computing using systems like BOINC. Third – physically distributed temporary creative groups to address current scientific, engineering and other tasks. In this case, the scale of the tax may be flat, a percentage transferred to the budget of Asgardia remuneration from citizens for the performance of such tasks. 

With regard to citizens working on future production or other enterprises, for example, for the production and maintenance of aerospace equipment, owned by Asgardia, as the main place of work – they have to pass the same tax rate, but their jobs, by definition, are high paid by virtue of required qualification.

 These moments are determined of separate legal acts after the adoption of the Constitution.

I note the problem.

 Such a model will be effective in a rapidly growing economy Asgardia and ineffective – at stagnating. From the outset, therefore requires the participation of Asgardia in large-scale, high budget projects for external customers – existing states or big companies of the Earth. 

This is a question for the founders.

  Last edited by:  Dmitry Novoseltsev (Asgardian)  on May 27, 17 / Can 07, 01 14:24 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time