May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 15:27 UTC

Re: Discussion of the draft Constitution  

Zokaa, ect. - I see the word "communism" makes many incorrect and negative interpretations. Then, please help to find a positive synonym to a definition: "a way of organizing of society, precluding systematic economic or other parasitism of some able-bodied and capable citizens or groups at the expense of other citizens or groups". You can certainly write and so, but too bulky. Need one memorable term.

@ LoreZyra– a few I wrote earlier about the permanent network referendums with weighting factors to each voice. Other ideas yet, will be immediately reported.

Zokaa– 11. I agree, it turns a strange archaic- whether the king and nobles, or the General Secretary of the CPSU Central Committee with the Politburo. So I would like to see from the developers detailed explanation of each item is what was meant.

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  Last edited by:  Dmitry Novoseltsev (Asgardian)  on May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 15:27 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 16:49 UTC

A "parliamentary republic" headed with a collegial body is much better than a "constitutional monarchy". 

May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 18:07 UTC

@BohZao on 28 May 2017, 2:51 p.m.

I voted Democratic Meritocracy but, after reading Lore Zyra's text, I think I would be quite happy with a Technocracy. 

Actually, there might not be much difference between the two. Meritocracy is based on past achievements and competency whereas Technocracy is based on expertise, experience, and potential future achievements.

  Last edited by:  Andre Ratel (Asgardian)  on May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 18:09 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 18:24 UTC

Estimados hermanos Asgardianos: perdonad por mi visión esceptica sobre los "fundadores de la madre patria", pero no les veo dando explicaciones, ni comentando sugerencias, ¿cuantos han redactado esta constitución? son tan pocos que nadie tiene tiempo para comentar nada? servirá tanto esfuerzo de algunos para que sus sugerencias sean escuchadas? sinceramente creo que todo está cocinado por unos pocos que se están montando una nación a su imagen y semejanza. Nada de lo dicho será tomado en cuenta porque tienen claro lo que quieren hacer. La bandera, himno, saludo.. etc, ya está pensado y elegido por ellos. Nadie se acuerda como fue elegido cabeza de la nación... o le elegías o no podías ser considerado ciudadano, al igual que se quiere hacer con la constitución... Espero que los esfuerzos de algunos de vosotros, sea tomado en consideración y que se refleje en el proyecto de constitución. Buen trabajo y gracias por vuestro esfuerzo.

Google translation

Dear Asgardian brothers: Forgive me for my skeptical view of the "founders of the motherland" but I do not see them giving explanations, nor commenting on suggestions, how many have drafted this constitution? Are so few that nobody has time to comment anything? Will it be so much effort by some to make their suggestions heard? I sincerely believe that everything is cooked by a few who are mounting a nation in its image and likeness. Nothing said will be taken into account because they are clear what they want to do. The flag, hymn, greeting .. etc, is already thought and chosen by them. No one remembers how he was elected head of the nation ... or you chose him or you could not be considered a citizen, just as one wants to do with the constitution ... I hope that the efforts of some of you will be taken into consideration and that Is reflected in the draft constitution. Good work and thank you for your efforts.


May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 19:27 UTC

In chapter 3, article 9, paragraph 10, the following sentence is clearly stated at the end: "The death penalty is prohibited in Asgardia. The creation of prisons is not admissible." According to the article and by that phrase. I ask myself: what will happen to those individuals who do not respect the law located in chapter 3, paragraph 4, g, which says: "(the citizen of Asgardia has) the right to physical integrity and the inviolability of the domicile." Will they be arrested, convicted, expelled or will they go unpunished?

May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 21:25 UTC

Hello Asgardians!

 How will an Asgardian citizen contribute with this nation as it is written in the constitution?

May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 21:44 UTC

@bohzao - yeah it's an interesting poll but really guys....

Shouldn't we be a little more practical and careful when making such large suppositions concerning public opinion. Especially when the poll is really only representative of the few people who are commenting on a particular forum.  I'm not belittling anyone's effort but as humans we do have a tendency to exaggerate for effect and to think that our opinion is representative of the whole.

It seems to me that if only 80 people voted then we have no proof for or against this poll being representative of the nearly 180000 signed up to Asgardia.

As I said, I'm not demeaning the validity of what each person feels or the effort everyone has put in concerning this draft however it would seem to be more constructive to be a somewhat objective when viewing the facts. Also I find it helpful to keep reminding myself that this is a draft and obviously it will have to be massaged and edited by people with a legal  background before the final.


  Last edited by:  Paul Bellamy (Asgardian)  on May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 21:46 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times

May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 22:02 UTC

@bigred

I agree with you here :-) I am definitely guilty of projecting my opinions on the silent masses. I am constantly trying to make sure I'm only stating things as my personal opinion (and I'm sure I'm failing occasionally).

That being said, and I may be projecting here again, I can't see many people agreeing that this was the original intent of the society we've been trying to build here. 

BloodyClean

May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 22:05 UTC

Please! I read something very wrong with the Constitution! 

Members of the Parliament can be elected as many times as they want? No! Limit the number, don't turn the Parliament into a career. 

Don't do the same mistake that the U.S. Congress did! Please!


May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 22:07 UTC

@ bigred

In sttistics we use "samples" to represent a large population of users, obviously the ideal would be about 1000, but samples serve as indicators of a population in general, statistically it represents the population in general, theoretically the percentage of these 80 and the 180000 Asgardians It would look alike (does not mean that it's correct!)

May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 22:27 UTC

@BohZao

In general you are right, but that also requires that you get a representative sample of the true population. By the nature of forums, you really are likely only getting similar minded people who are vested in the conversation. 

It's possible that it's a representative sample, and I would like that, but I think it's probably skewed, at least slightly. 

BloodyClean

May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 23:03 UTC

@ BloodyClean

its pratically impossible to make a true statistic here, theres not even 800 people who enter in the forum, so to "sample" 80 people its a "okay".

Yeah its true about its maybe a little skewed, but with our actual situation where we have 180.000 asgardians, theres only 15.000 in Asgardia General official and on Oficial Face only 100.000 (55% of the actual number of Asgardians), the forum its not even a fraction of this but its the best i can do, with the resources i have haha


May 28, 17 / Can 08, 01 23:09 UTC

@bohzao - Seeing as part of my job is statistical analysis I agree that is correct. However 80/180000 is not representative enough and as @bloodyclean says skewing is a major factor on these forums.

My point was more along the lines of ensuring we don't inflame a situation based on very very very small items that really don't give us any solid proof one way or the other.  Basing an opinion on that poll's info can only serve to make the discussion more emotive rather than outlining solid arguments for or against various parts of the draft or providing suggestions for improvement.

Anyway this is a bit off topic.

May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 00:05 UTC

@LoreZyra

@Dmitry Novoseltsev(Asgardian) on 28 May 2017, 1:56 p.m.
Sorry,  I did not understand what I wrote incorrectly. English is not my native  language, maybe I have something badly translated. Let indicate the  moderators. 

Actually, your English is just fine. I found no problem with your English as I am a native English speaker. However, Elwe Thor was being sarcastic with his words. No need to censor the word  "answers" with "a-word..." Some have developed a pessimistic view of  recent developments with Asgardia.Space - not everyone wishes to bow  before a King.

Yes, @LoreZyra correctly interpreted my sentences. Sorry Dmitry if I've been a little rude, it wasn't my intention.
And yes again, I'm into the "pessimistics" (or, better, skepticals), gathering all the signals I read, both into this forum, outside of it, into "other side" behaviors.
I'm sad they choose to be the "other side" as, at the start, I was thinking we was all on the same side, trying to build something which can be considered "a dream", but, after all, is into our reach... depending on the way we'll decide to build it: as @LoreZyra correctly wrote, "not everyone wishes to bow before a king".

@LoreZyra
Regarding your ideas on a Direct Democracy, would  you have any ideas to implement it? How can it be scalable and stable as  it grows in population?

That's exactly the problem: scaling.

May 29, 17 / Can 09, 01 00:14 UTC

I thought it would be good to watch the video before reading the book, because I know how I am with details that is not there and are important. So many comments. Sorry for misunderstanding in the beginning of this answer. I have read and read, and haven't slept for some time, and is sick for the time being because of the "strange" weather change. 

First of all, Monarch?! Really? No. I am from Sweden, and here the royal family lost their power hundreds of years ago, they are like the figurehead on a boat. They are there but without power. Why is that? Well because some time ago a king fought it would be fun to tax everyone very heavily and steal all the gold, silver and copper, not even the churchbells where left behind. Some foundations are better left to the past as proof of non funcional, well it works if everyone wants a tyrant from time to time.

I was born in 1986, I don't really have the hands on experience of the Stockholm Bloodbath with beheadings and stuff in the 18th century, my thoughts about this space nation has been that of utopia of free thinking, where as my basic beliefs is that a socialistic free society would work with the basic moral standards like don't kill, steal, lie, hurt, rape etc. maxed out gender equality and a direct voting system. With todays technology we would had been capable to vote before I was born on every single question. It should also be a strong win for a big thing, ex. "should everyone be vegans 54% percent yes vs. 56% no would result in a 3-6 month propaganda rally with facts! and then revote, til the whole of Asgardia has voted a minimum of say 65%-75% towards the one or the other.

"Republic

A republic is a form of government in which the country is considered a "public matter" – not the private concern or property of the rulers – and where offices of state are elected or appointed, rather than inherited. It is a government where the head of state is not a monarch." Yeah I noticed very late, I have been sitting and reading up on a lot these past days, since I have not had a computer for a while.

The head of state is a communicator towards earths leaders, that individual should not have any power and when the person have had the title of head of state for 3-4 to 6-12 years the person will be "demoted" to Voice of State or something, til the day that individual dies or a maximum of 10 years with 2 other people with the same title that has been voted in by the residents of the space nation to be the Head of States consultation for a direct Voice of the people. Hope you understood that. There is a need for never ways of thinking when it comes to this new nation AND we have to think of it as part of something that will be lasting for a long time, thinking in the old monarch or the today standard of democracy or as i like to see it masked massdictatorship, you vote, they choose. Thinking longterm is what is needed.


The need for money, is also something that needs to be talked about, why do we need money, If it is an cryptocurrency, then why don't everyone spend money on farming gear and farm for the state so that everyone can get equal rights? All the cryptocurrency gets to be a service to state wallet, so that the state can buy the free food, gear and materials and/or be able to pay workers that come aboard to, well maybe repair the station if we are not capable.


Also it is really nice to have a currency, but who the fudge gave it the name?? Was it voted through?!!! GOR i can give you like 400 different thoughts that I thought of when i read it the first time, here are some examples Conan the Barbarian, Star Wars/Trek/Gate, Chuthulu, Ghostbusters and the list goes on. Why did I think of random fantasy and science fiction?! Name it after the Nation please. Asgardian Credits has been named over and over again, It has a simple ring to it. AC, OOOh electrical money.... Going back and forth.


Is the constitution supposed to have the whole book of laws in one and the same first document? Please, change, Constitution, is a building block, and from that we build the society, the laws should not be in a constitution, not how to run the nation either, the rights of the people and the rights of the government, thats it. The protection of both as one. Laws and political ways in different documents linked to the constitution and they can be changed by votes through people that are capable to help the Voices of State to conduct the study for the vote. When voting in a new Head of State, that is not going to be a 24h rally, It should be a 3-6 months thing, so that people does not make impulsive decisions.


We can NOT make one government buildup being the only one in existance, We are not going to live forever and we are bound to meet other lifeforms later on and they may have a better idea for how to govern a state/Nation. It should be open but oldtime racism or nationalism should not be okey, so we should have a way to protect the standing government, by secure lock voting, meaning many votes with a very high ratio to be able to go to the next step and if it passes the second it could be able on the third voting to be changed. If it does not pass the second, it should be logged as inappropriate and not able to be voted in for say 75 years. These are really impulsive ideas not thought through at all, I am a quick thinker and I have many ideas.


Do not use specific gender types. use person, individual/s etc instead.


Now the draft I really have to go through this in its entierty.  


So lets brake down one at a time right?


"1:2 ensure the protection of planet Earth and the entire humankind from

outer space threats ;" Are we to take over for NASA? Just asking because they are mostly a black budget scam.


"1:3 . Any citizen of Earth can become a citizen of Asgardia, if he concurs with this

Declaration, respects the Constitution and legislation of Asgardia." So what happens to those of us that questions it? I do find it really amuzing since I am a member and this was made after that decision was made.


"1:5 Asgardia respects the laws of the states on Earth and the international

agreements and wishes to be recognized as equal country among other states  on earth" is the grammar wrong or is it just me?


"1:9 Asgardia does not engage in politics, there is no place for political parties in

Asgardia. But every Asgardian can freely participate in political life on Earth" Um? No politics in the space nation? So the leader can do what he likes? So the parlament can do as they chose? As I stated earlier, direct democracy, for all the big issus. It is the future it is meant for right? Or did we sign on on a scientology laundry scam?


"1:11 Asgardia is a country of free spirit, science and internationalism. At the same

time, every Asgardian can freely practice any religion on Earth." On earth... Yeah, on mars or the moon it could be illegal, or on the nations station... restate please.


"1:12 There is no place for Earth conflicts history in Asgardia. Asgardia creates a

new peaceful history of the future of the space humankind. " No learning from history here, that means we could as easily make the same mistakes again, we should have open records and they should be openly known so that everyone can access them, an open society is a good one.


"2:2 Asgardia is a Constitutional Monarchy that is the first free space unitary, social

nation under law that is above ethnic, national, religious divides, based on morality,

fairness, peace and the equal dignity of every human being, which looks to the

future and the infinite space of the Universe" You are not looking upon the future when you give all power to one person/family/heritage, in 200 years, you don't know who is going to control the nation, what personality etc. only when you give the power to the people then you will know that it will probably never get corrupt. Or is the meaning of this nation to start upon corrupt grounds? Especially since we where all equal, equal to what? Can I become King? President? Space Emperor?`or what it is supposed to called?


"2:4" Supreme... Change the word.


"2:4.3 Asgardia’s absolute supreme value is humanity striving into the limitless future

of the limitless Universe, an unstoppable quest to understand and transform  the world" In what way are we going to transform the world?


"2:4.4g supremacy of law;"


su·prem·a·cy  (so͝o-prĕm′ə-sē)

n. pl. su·prem·a·cies

1. The quality or condition of being supreme.

2. Supreme power or authority.


So which one is it?