Jun 8, 01 / May 28, 17 21:25 UTC
Re: Discussion of the draft Constitution ¶
How will an Asgardian citizen contribute with this nation as it is written in the constitution?
Jun 8, 01 / May 28, 17 21:44 UTC
@bohzao - yeah it's an interesting poll but really guys....
Shouldn't we be a little more practical and careful when making such large suppositions concerning public opinion. Especially when the poll is really only representative of the few people who are commenting on a particular forum. I'm not belittling anyone's effort but as humans we do have a tendency to exaggerate for effect and to think that our opinion is representative of the whole.
It seems to me that if only 80 people voted then we have no proof for or against this poll being representative of the nearly 180000 signed up to Asgardia.
As I said, I'm not demeaning the validity of what each person feels or the effort everyone has put in concerning this draft however it would seem to be more constructive to be a somewhat objective when viewing the facts. Also I find it helpful to keep reminding myself that this is a draft and obviously it will have to be massaged and edited by people with a legal background before the final.
Jun 8, 01 / May 28, 17 22:02 UTC
I agree with you here :-) I am definitely guilty of projecting my opinions on the silent masses. I am constantly trying to make sure I'm only stating things as my personal opinion (and I'm sure I'm failing occasionally).
That being said, and I may be projecting here again, I can't see many people agreeing that this was the original intent of the society we've been trying to build here.
Jun 8, 01 / May 28, 17 22:05 UTC
Please! I read something very wrong with the Constitution!
Members of the Parliament can be elected as many times as they want? No! Limit the number, don't turn the Parliament into a career.
Don't do the same mistake that the U.S. Congress did! Please!
Jun 8, 01 / May 28, 17 22:07 UTC
In sttistics we use "samples" to represent a large population of users, obviously the ideal would be about 1000, but samples serve as indicators of a population in general, statistically it represents the population in general, theoretically the percentage of these 80 and the 180000 Asgardians It would look alike (does not mean that it's correct!)
Jun 8, 01 / May 28, 17 22:27 UTC
In general you are right, but that also requires that you get a representative sample of the true population. By the nature of forums, you really are likely only getting similar minded people who are vested in the conversation.
It's possible that it's a representative sample, and I would like that, but I think it's probably skewed, at least slightly.
Jun 8, 01 / May 28, 17 23:03 UTC
its pratically impossible to make a true statistic here, theres not even 800 people who enter in the forum, so to "sample" 80 people its a "okay".
Yeah its true about its maybe a little skewed, but with our actual situation where we have 180.000 asgardians, theres only 15.000 in Asgardia General official and on Oficial Face only 100.000 (55% of the actual number of Asgardians), the forum its not even a fraction of this but its the best i can do, with the resources i have haha
Jun 8, 01 / May 28, 17 23:09 UTC
@bohzao - Seeing as part of my job is statistical analysis I agree that is correct. However 80/180000 is not representative enough and as @bloodyclean says skewing is a major factor on these forums.
My point was more along the lines of ensuring we don't inflame a situation based on very very very small items that really don't give us any solid proof one way or the other. Basing an opinion on that poll's info can only serve to make the discussion more emotive rather than outlining solid arguments for or against various parts of the draft or providing suggestions for improvement.
Anyway this is a bit off topic.
Jun 9, 01 / May 29, 17 00:05 UTC
@Dmitry Novoseltsev(Asgardian) on 28 May 2017, 1:56 p.m.
Sorry, I did not understand what I wrote incorrectly. English is not my native language, maybe I have something badly translated. Let indicate the moderators.
Actually, your English is just fine. I found no problem with your English as I am a native English speaker. However, Elwe Thor was being sarcastic with his words. No need to censor the word "answers" with "a-word..." Some have developed a pessimistic view of recent developments with Asgardia.Space - not everyone wishes to bow before a King.
Yes, @LoreZyra correctly interpreted my sentences. Sorry Dmitry if I've been a little rude, it wasn't my intention.
And yes again, I'm into the "pessimistics" (or, better, skepticals), gathering all the signals I read, both into this forum, outside of it, into "other side" behaviors.
I'm sad they choose to be the "other side" as, at the start, I was thinking we was all on the same side, trying to build something which can be considered "a dream", but, after all, is into our reach... depending on the way we'll decide to build it: as @LoreZyra correctly wrote, "not everyone wishes to bow before a king".
Regarding your ideas on a Direct Democracy, would you have any ideas to implement it? How can it be scalable and stable as it grows in population?
That's exactly the problem: scaling.
Jun 9, 01 / May 29, 17 00:14 UTC
I thought it would be good to watch the video before reading the book, because I know how I am with details that is not there and are important. So many comments. Sorry for misunderstanding in the beginning of this answer. I have read and read, and haven't slept for some time, and is sick for the time being because of the "strange" weather change.
First of all, Monarch?! Really? No. I am from Sweden, and here the royal family lost their power hundreds of years ago, they are like the figurehead on a boat. They are there but without power. Why is that? Well because some time ago a king fought it would be fun to tax everyone very heavily and steal all the gold, silver and copper, not even the churchbells where left behind. Some foundations are better left to the past as proof of non funcional, well it works if everyone wants a tyrant from time to time.
I was born in 1986, I don't really have the hands on experience of the Stockholm Bloodbath with beheadings and stuff in the 18th century, my thoughts about this space nation has been that of utopia of free thinking, where as my basic beliefs is that a socialistic free society would work with the basic moral standards like don't kill, steal, lie, hurt, rape etc. maxed out gender equality and a direct voting system. With todays technology we would had been capable to vote before I was born on every single question. It should also be a strong win for a big thing, ex. "should everyone be vegans 54% percent yes vs. 56% no would result in a 3-6 month propaganda rally with facts! and then revote, til the whole of Asgardia has voted a minimum of say 65%-75% towards the one or the other.
A republic is a form of government in which the country is considered a "public matter" – not the private concern or property of the rulers – and where offices of state are elected or appointed, rather than inherited. It is a government where the head of state is not a monarch." Yeah I noticed very late, I have been sitting and reading up on a lot these past days, since I have not had a computer for a while.
The head of state is a communicator towards earths leaders, that individual should not have any power and when the person have had the title of head of state for 3-4 to 6-12 years the person will be "demoted" to Voice of State or something, til the day that individual dies or a maximum of 10 years with 2 other people with the same title that has been voted in by the residents of the space nation to be the Head of States consultation for a direct Voice of the people. Hope you understood that. There is a need for never ways of thinking when it comes to this new nation AND we have to think of it as part of something that will be lasting for a long time, thinking in the old monarch or the today standard of democracy or as i like to see it masked massdictatorship, you vote, they choose. Thinking longterm is what is needed.
The need for money, is also something that needs to be talked about, why do we need money, If it is an cryptocurrency, then why don't everyone spend money on farming gear and farm for the state so that everyone can get equal rights? All the cryptocurrency gets to be a service to state wallet, so that the state can buy the free food, gear and materials and/or be able to pay workers that come aboard to, well maybe repair the station if we are not capable.
Also it is really nice to have a currency, but who the fudge gave it the name?? Was it voted through?!!! GOR i can give you like 400 different thoughts that I thought of when i read it the first time, here are some examples Conan the Barbarian, Star Wars/Trek/Gate, Chuthulu, Ghostbusters and the list goes on. Why did I think of random fantasy and science fiction?! Name it after the Nation please. Asgardian Credits has been named over and over again, It has a simple ring to it. AC, OOOh electrical money.... Going back and forth.
Is the constitution supposed to have the whole book of laws in one and the same first document? Please, change, Constitution, is a building block, and from that we build the society, the laws should not be in a constitution, not how to run the nation either, the rights of the people and the rights of the government, thats it. The protection of both as one. Laws and political ways in different documents linked to the constitution and they can be changed by votes through people that are capable to help the Voices of State to conduct the study for the vote. When voting in a new Head of State, that is not going to be a 24h rally, It should be a 3-6 months thing, so that people does not make impulsive decisions.
We can NOT make one government buildup being the only one in existance, We are not going to live forever and we are bound to meet other lifeforms later on and they may have a better idea for how to govern a state/Nation. It should be open but oldtime racism or nationalism should not be okey, so we should have a way to protect the standing government, by secure lock voting, meaning many votes with a very high ratio to be able to go to the next step and if it passes the second it could be able on the third voting to be changed. If it does not pass the second, it should be logged as inappropriate and not able to be voted in for say 75 years. These are really impulsive ideas not thought through at all, I am a quick thinker and I have many ideas.
Do not use specific gender types. use person, individual/s etc instead.
Now the draft I really have to go through this in its entierty.
So lets brake down one at a time right?
"1:2 ensure the protection of planet Earth and the entire humankind from
outer space threats ;" Are we to take over for NASA? Just asking because they are mostly a black budget scam.
"1:3 . Any citizen of Earth can become a citizen of Asgardia, if he concurs with this
Declaration, respects the Constitution and legislation of Asgardia." So what happens to those of us that questions it? I do find it really amuzing since I am a member and this was made after that decision was made.
"1:5 Asgardia respects the laws of the states on Earth and the international
agreements and wishes to be recognized as equal country among other states on earth" is the grammar wrong or is it just me?
"1:9 Asgardia does not engage in politics, there is no place for political parties in
Asgardia. But every Asgardian can freely participate in political life on Earth" Um? No politics in the space nation? So the leader can do what he likes? So the parlament can do as they chose? As I stated earlier, direct democracy, for all the big issus. It is the future it is meant for right? Or did we sign on on a scientology laundry scam?
"1:11 Asgardia is a country of free spirit, science and internationalism. At the same
time, every Asgardian can freely practice any religion on Earth." On earth... Yeah, on mars or the moon it could be illegal, or on the nations station... restate please.
"1:12 There is no place for Earth conflicts history in Asgardia. Asgardia creates a
new peaceful history of the future of the space humankind. " No learning from history here, that means we could as easily make the same mistakes again, we should have open records and they should be openly known so that everyone can access them, an open society is a good one.
"2:2 Asgardia is a Constitutional Monarchy that is the first free space unitary, social
nation under law that is above ethnic, national, religious divides, based on morality,
fairness, peace and the equal dignity of every human being, which looks to the
future and the infinite space of the Universe" You are not looking upon the future when you give all power to one person/family/heritage, in 200 years, you don't know who is going to control the nation, what personality etc. only when you give the power to the people then you will know that it will probably never get corrupt. Or is the meaning of this nation to start upon corrupt grounds? Especially since we where all equal, equal to what? Can I become King? President? Space Emperor?`or what it is supposed to called?
"2:4" Supreme... Change the word.
"2:4.3 Asgardia’s absolute supreme value is humanity striving into the limitless future
of the limitless Universe, an unstoppable quest to understand and transform the world" In what way are we going to transform the world?
"2:4.4g supremacy of law;"
n. pl. su·prem·a·cies
1. The quality or condition of being supreme.
2. Supreme power or authority.
So which one is it?
Jun 9, 01 / May 29, 17 00:16 UTC
"2:5.1 At the time of its foundation, Asgardia’s territory is the digitised noosphere, a
digital state with living citizens on Earth, which exists on a near-Earth orbit
in the form of a single satellite or an orbital satellite constellation." Do not use a presentence or past grammar on this, well don't even have it here, have it in the history of Asgardia section in the historybooks. When it comes to sending up satellites, what are we going to use those for? Secure communication between Asgardians with free internet access? Or is it going to take pictures from low earth so that we know where earth is?
Scrap the whole article 2:5.1 & 2 & 3 as it is stating what we are going to do, anyone thinking of the ones reading in 100-1000 years from now? Either thinking that the creators where really stupid or they being stupid and using it as a cerimony every year launching satellites into low orbit....
"2:5.7 Asgardia uses adjacent territories (hard surfaces, subsurface resources,
oceans, atmospheres, space, celestial bodies) in accordance with generally
recognised international principles and norms, as well as international
treaties to which it is a party" Good so what is the international standards? What happens when they are lost?
"3:1 Any resident of Earth over the age of 16 who agrees to Asgardia’s Declaration
of Unity and Constitution and consciously submits his/her digital personal
data to Asgardia’s Space Database may become an Asgardian citizen. " Submits their personal data? And why only earth? Weren't everyone equally valued? Why is everyone thinking one world? DO YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND THAT THIS STATEMENT COULD LEAD TO WAR IN THE FUTURE?!
"3:2" Once again, what if we get recognized internationally in like 5 years or 10 or 20 then we will have dual citizenship right? Why is this statement in the constitution?
"3:3" So any child born now by a member is hereby an Asgardian by LAW?! Looking at 3:2 looking back at 3:3. Some thinking may have been used here....
"3:4" You are hereby a citizen of Asgardia, welcome to the spaceship that only holds Asgardians, oh, you stole an apple, you are hereby revoked of your citizenship and are not legally occupying the ship, you are sentenced to be dropped of at the nearest non Asgardian location, which is space, bye! *flushed out*
"3:7.1 Asgardian citizens have the right of free movement in Asgardian localities
and the right to choose their location in Earth nations" So once again, earth, also I have some open statements to talk about here, seems like this is meant to be a fixed hole to use in case of fire, when Asgardia is internationally recognized then it will be possible to, well laundry corrupt or stolen money through the state affairs , and flee to whatever country they chose to. For an example.
If we are to give everyone the same rights, why not try to overwrite every other countries laws so that the Asgardians cannot be touched without causing problems with the nations on earth, that way we could probably get more citizens.
"3:8.4 Key Citizen Rights and Freedoms" Who are the KEY citizens? Central rights & freedoms of the Asgardian citizens, sounds fair right?
"3:8.5 If the state infringes on the rights of an Asgardian citizen, he/she has the right
to seek legal protection in court" How is this court set up?
"3:9.5 Asgardian citizens must pay lawfully established taxes and levies." Sure, when does this start and should we like have double taxation upon our countries money as we are not citizens of dual citizenship.. :S Since when did a taxation system work, if there is not going to be a change for this, then at least let every one pay the taxation as a normal bill. And have Direct democracy, and then see what will be done with the money as everyone will start to understand the sums that goes to the government.
"3:9.6 Asgardian citizens have the right and obligations to participate in elections and
referenda. Systematic derogation of this duty may lead to legal consequences
in accordance with the law. " It should only be an obligation to atleast vote blank.
"3:9.10 Failure to perform citizen obligations or failure to perform them properly
may lead to permanent revocation of Asgardian citizenship, suspension of
Asgardian citizenship, fines, restriction and/or permanent revocation of access
to Asgardia’s electronic resources in accordance with the law of Asgardia. The
death penalty is prohibited in Asgardia. The creation of prisons is prohibited
in Asgardia. " So electronic dictatorship in the workings? I understand that everyone is needed to be in the worksquad, but what happens in the case of sickness? Or in a accident, or if there is no work to be done?
"3:10.5 The state guarantees that its aims, plans, development forecasts, as well as
threats and risks to its development, will be publicly disclosed." To what degree? If it is not in development, it is not needed to be disclosed.
"3:10.6 The state must establish Asgardia’s public opinion and take it into account
when making administrative decisions in accordance with the law of Asgardia." So is it going to be a dictator direct democrazyship? You can't save the cookie and eat it at the same time. It should be looked upon once again.
"4:11.2 Asgardia uses its own material, financial and other resources to ensure free
access to distance learning, professional qualifications, scientific and creative
work for Asgardian citizens." Is this going to be based on earth basics or are we going to do like the americans and go imperical.
"4:11.3 Asgardian citizens have a guaranteed right to free time for self-development
and self-improvement, creative and cultural pursuits" So what is self improvement? By cultural is meant that also religion is added right, so I can spend hours meditating? It's up to the interpitation.
"4:11.5 The state supports Asgardian citizens in leading healthy lifestyles." So then you should support VEGANISM as this should be the most healthy lifestyle or are we going to have slaughterhouses in space to?
"4:12.3 Asgardia’s natural resources may be exclusively state property, the property of
state-owned companies, public-private property, private property, personal
property, as well as other property under the law of Asgardia." The water hereby costs 35 credits per centilitres, the state decrees that it is necessary for our survival...
"4:13.1 Asgardia’s sovereign financial resources comprise state and private finance.
Arbitrary seizure of private financial resources is prohibited." Good, but a while ago it was stated that the money could be stopped if you where not producing. How does this not cross paths?
"4:13.2 Asgardia’s currency is the Gor." WHAT WAS WRONG WITH ASGARDIAN CREDITS? AC for short, would it start a new millenium bug?
"4:13.4 Asgardia’s National Bank is responsible for the exchange rate, issue and
circulation of finance, stability of the sovereign currency and bank system
liquidity. Asgardia’s National Bank is regulated by the law of Asgardia." As I wrote earlier, no money for the people, every citizen generate currency so that the nation can exchange products with earth, but everything should be free for the citizens, that releases both the stress of not being able ta have the seaweed or porridge on the table and stops greed and ensures equality to the people. The bank could as easily be an AI in the future, making all the necissary exchanges.
I have still not understood the whole science fiction "ideal parameters to the moon" thing.
"4:13.9 Asgardia’s National Bank facilitates the development of a banking system for
state-owned and private banks, regulates their operations and profitability.
The state guarantees bank secrecy. Bank secrecy may not be restricted by the
law of Asgardia or international " So? It is basically a new theft machine set in motion? People are not in the need to be governed by a bank, when we have a crypto currency there is no need for a bank, thinking of bitcoins....
"4:13.7 Asgardia guarantees the rights of authors, inventors and users of intellectual
property in harmony and balance. " Asgardia should have their own patent system, where it instead of making it banned for anyone to use the ideas it should be open for improvements and implementations for everyone. Greed is not going to help anyone.
Reading the rest, not going to lay my voice to the rest. Much of the rest was good, my biggest concerns are the bank, currency, and the taxation and oldschool system.
Jun 9, 01 / May 29, 17 00:17 UTC
My conclusion is that some of the things needs to be written for the future from the start and I do understand that this is a draft , there should also be a reorder of everything much of it makes sense later on, not directly. The constitution needs to have the basic strong constitution and the laws should not be in it, they should be in a whole own document and that also goes for the guidelines for citizenship, territory etc. A constitution is the base structure, it should be strong and small, so that there is not much room for different interpretations. I am also very sorry for my English which is basic but understandable. Which the constitution also should be.
Jun 9, 01 / May 29, 17 02:27 UTC
It seems fair people are expected to pay taxes just as they are now once a station is actually built. The age for the government positions is a bit high though, I don't think it would properly represent everyone considering the various ages. I'm not sure about the monarchy because they don't always work though I can see some "checks and balances" with the other branches like Parliament, Judiciary and the Royal Council of Supreme Values.
Jun 9, 01 / May 29, 17 03:01 UTC
I want to thank everyone for their comments and contributions to this discussion. The compilation team has added all of your comments and concerns into a single document that will be submitted to the LEGAL team and translators.