Jun 11, 01 / May 31, 17 11:03 UTC

Re: Discussion of the draft Constitution  

And some considerations on the socio-economic unit that is separate and not selected. 

Here never sounded (although several times I noticed), as is the named economic model and the society that we want to. "???-izm"?

But some things still indicated:

Article 17, 2. Asgardia is a state of social justice ...

Article 18, 6. The state seeks to minimize the inequality of social conditions and opportunities of the citizens of Asgardia, including due to the conditions of their country of physical residence.


I would like to add the following thoughts.

- One of the goals of Asgardia is the creation of the welfare state, providing optimal conditions for the citizens .

- One of the principles of organization of society is the reduction of inequality of citizens fore fundamentally insignificant level (about inequality and its impact on society I have previously provided a link https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resources/the-spirit-level ).

- Given the fact that complete economic equality is unattainable by non-coercive because of the natural differences between people, and given the significant heterogeneity of the initial state of the citizens of Asgardia at the time of its formation, the goal of socio-economic activities of the state is to ensure the principle of equality of living standards and opportunities for its citizens. (Here it is not so difficult as it seems. The idea is this: if in one village, the neighborhood is home to millionaire, billionaire and multi-billionaire, their standard of living and consumption vary so slightly that it is not always possible to determine who is who (unless they are the appropriate people). They are roughly the same transport, schools, hospitals, gyms, etc. with roughly the same cost of it. Differences arise in the potential. Someone can create their own projects to a greater or lesser scale, and someone joins while applicable). 

- Any discrimination of citizens in terms of socio-economic well-being and any property qualification not allowed.

- Citizens are guaranteed the right to equal access to the benefits and opportunities provided by Asgardia in its infrastructure, given current technical capabilities, and targeted their extension to the full realization of this right.

- A mechanism to ensure socio-economic equality of the citizens of Asgardia is non-confiscatory. The alignment of the socio-economic level is provided not at the expense of reduction of incomes of the most wealthy citizens, and by creating conditions for faster growth of the income of less affluent citizens. (This is an attempt to circumvent the rake, which with good intentions came the ancestors after the revolution of 1917).

- Confiscatory measures are permissible only in respect of income from activities that cause deliberate harm to other citizens of Asgardia and their groups, if such activity has not been previously prevented by the legal mechanisms of Asgardia. (Perhaps the paragraph redundant. This refers to pyramid schemes, speculation in goods and services, and other types of fraud, drug trafficking and other obviously harmful goods, etc.).

- In the general case, is unacceptable increase in or preservation of life standard of some people of Asgardia or groups at the expense of reducing the living standards of others.

Like this. I propose to clarify and supplement.

Jun 11, 01 / May 31, 17 16:27 UTC

Конституция Асгардии должная включать Идею  универсального базового дохода (УБИ) – это стандартная база “зарплата” для каждого члена общества, которая может удовлетворить наши основные потребности  независимо от работы, которую мы делаем.  Штат Аляска, опыт создания  “постоянного  фонда” , который распределяет дивиденды каждому жителю, чтобы они могли пользоваться всеми богатствами, почерпнутые из государственных  природных ресурсов, все граждане  в равной степени. Мы, в Асгадрии, должны иметь общество, которое измеряет прогресс не только экономическими показателями, такими как ВВП. Мы должны применить идеи универсального основного дохода, чтобы у всех граждан Асгардии была стабильная материальная основа, чтобы создавать и пробовать новые идеи. Цукерберг пополнил список экспертов и Новаторов, которые считают поддержку базовых человеческих потребностей  приоритетной по отношению к экономическим показателям . Он присоединяется к  Элону Маску, Биллу Гейтсу, Энди Стерн, Тимофей Höttges. Пилотные программы УБИ показывают  сильные стороны и выгоды различных стратегий, и данные по Аляске  могут  подсказать, как такие программы могут выдержать испытание временем в Асгардии.

The Asgardia Constitution should include the Universal Basic Income Idea (UBI) - this is the standard "salary" basis for every member of society that can meet our basic needs regardless of the work that we do. The state of Alaska, the experience of creating a "permanent fund," which distributes dividends to each resident so that they can enjoy all the riches gleaned from state natural resources, all citizens equally. We in Asgadria should have a society that measures progress not only by economic indicators, such as GDP. We must apply the ideas of universal basic income so that all citizens of Asgardia have a stable material basis to create and try new ideas. Zuckerberg joined the list of experts and innovators, who consider supporting basic human needs as a priority in relation to economic indicators. He joins Elon Mask, Bill Gates, Andy Stern, Timothy Höttges. The UBI pilot programs show the strengths and benefits of different strategies, and the Alaska data can tell how such programs can stand the test of time in Asgardia.


Admin Edit: Translation provided by Google - Jason Rainbow, 31 May 2017

  Last edited by:  Jason Rainbow (Global Admin, Global Mod, Asgardian)  on Jun 11, 01 / May 31, 17 17:54 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Providing English Translation

Jun 11, 01 / May 31, 17 18:05 UTC

Bonjour à tous les Asgardiens,

Je viens de relire la constitution proposée, en français. Elle me paraît tout à fait juste et respectueuse des droits des citoyens. De plus elle est très précise, il y a beaucoup de choses à retenir. J'apprécie vraiment les articles sur  les libertés individuelles, une nation qui a pour valeur la paix, la protection de la terre et de l'humanité, et surtout l'idée d'avancer , à tous les niveaux et dans tous les domaines, que ce soit scientifique, artistique ou autre. Et ceci, tous ensemble; Tous ensemble, évoluer et s'améliorer, pour laisser aux générations futures, un monde meilleur.

Bonne fin de journée,

Sincerly, Carina



I just reread the proposed constitution in French. It seems entirely fair and respectful of the rights of citizens. Moreover it is very accurate, there are many things to remember. I really enjoy the articles on individual freedoms, a nation that has the value of peace, protection of the earth and of humanity, especially the idea of progress at all levels and in all fields, be it scientific, artistic or otherwise. And this all together; Together, evolve and improve, to leave future generations a better world.

Good evening,

Sincerly, Carina


Admin Edit: Translation provided by Google.  Jason Rainbow 31 May 2017


  Last edited by:  Jason Rainbow (Global Admin, Global Mod, Asgardian)  on Jun 12, 01 / Jun 1, 17 01:48 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Providing English Translation

Jun 11, 01 / May 31, 17 21:21 UTC

For those interested, some good economic reasons justifying a universal basic income (UBI) are listed on
http://www.kurzweilai.net/letter-from-ray-supporting-universal-basic-income-as-step-in-world-progress

However, I think that it could be difficult to implement a UBI before Ascardia's economy is well established. 

Jun 11, 01 / May 31, 17 23:25 UTC

@Thor

Hm, there is also "hse". Fit the "s" between the "h" and the "e". 

Jun 12, 01 / Jun 1, 17 05:12 UTC

@skieswanne
True: we should see how both sounds, then choose the one which sounds better and is more recognizable. As I'm italian, I've quite no idea of their sound.
Did a quick try: GoogleTranslator refuses to speak "ehs" but tells "hse" not that bad.

Jun 12, 01 / Jun 1, 17 17:48 UTC

It is already proven that religion harms humanity, why bring it only Asgardia?

http://oxfordstudent.com/2013/11/14/this-house-believes-religion-harms-society/

Jun 12, 01 / Jun 1, 17 21:07 UTC

As written, I cannot vote for this. I had hopes for something more welcoming and embracing but to set out to legislate morality is a bit much. As far as Monarchy? Balderdash.  Eagerly awaiting revisions and a final document, the vote is days away.

Jun 12, 01 / Jun 1, 17 21:10 UTC

Here is a repost of my 25 January suggestions. None of which were taken into consideration.

My ideas, probably not comprehensive but somewhere to start from.

The following rights and responsibilities are vested in every Asgardian:

  1. Right to life - every Asgardian and every sentient being within the realms of Asgardia regardless of origin has the right to exist.
  2. Right of self determination - every Asgardian above the age of majority has the right to decide the context in which they will lead their lives, provided it does not infringe on any other right or obligation stated herein.
  3. Right and obligation of knowledge - every Asgardian has the right of and the duty to a comprehensive science-based education, necessary for the well being of Asgardian society. The government of Asgardia shall provide each citizen with the tools and facilities necessary to this end.
  4. Right to safety and protection - every Asgardian has the right to a safe and livable habitat necessary to all the other rights herein. The government of Asgardia shall provide each citizen with the means necessary to this end. The government of Asgardia shall provide for the common protection and defence of all citizens from any hostile or injurious act or threats both external and internal. The government of Asgardia shall ensure the adequate care of Asgardian citizens by foreign governments or entities, hostile or not.
  5. Right and obligation to the commons - every Asgardian has the rights to, and duty to protect, the commons, being necessary for the survival of Asgardia and Asgardians, and shall not be denied access to nor use of any element, gas, liquid, organic or inorganic material, shelter, or nutrition necessary to adhere to the right to life, nor shall Asgardia deny any Asgardian common ownership thereof.
  6. Right to governmental representation - every Asgardian above the age of majority shall have the right to be represented in the government of Asgardia, regardless of where in the universe they may reside. Every Asgardian shall have the right to peacefully petition the Asgardian government to redress grievances, individually or as a collective.
  7. Right to health care and euthanasia - The government of Asgardia shall ensure that the health of every Asgardian is maintained to a high standard necessary to the functioning of a healthy society. Health care services shall not be denied to any Asgardian for any reason. Any Asgardian citizen above the age of majority may, either directly or through a pre-authorized process, request euthanasia services for themselves. The government of Asgardia shall have the ability to provide this care through direct taxation.
  8. Right to presumption of innocence and representation by counsel - every Asgardian citizen shall, upon accusation of criminal acts, be presumed innocent until found guilty by a jury of no less than twelve of his Asgardian peers, the right to appeal conviction to a higher court or body shall not be infringed. The government of Asgardia shall ensure fair representation of the accused by competent counsel. No Asgardian shall be compelled to give testimony which might incriminate themselves.
  9. Right to privacy - every Asgardian citizen shall have the right to be free of interference or intrusion by government into their personal communications and data. The government shall not interfere or intrude into the personal living space of any citizen without sufficient evidence of the immediate need to maintain safety and life within Asgardia to cause a warrant to be issued by a competent court. The government of Asgardia shall not establish any court or legal body capable of issuing warrants or legal determinations that is not completely transparent and available to all Asgardians.
  10. Right of Equality - every Asgardian citizen shall be deemed to have and hold equal rights of and obligations to Asgardia, and shall uphold and defend these rights for all Asgardians, anywhere they may exist, nor may the government of Asgardia deny such. No Asgardian shall be relieved from these rights and obligations until such time as they voluntarily renounce Asgardian citizenship and forfeit all rights and obligations resulting therefrom.

Thoughts and criticism are welcome :)

Jun 12, 01 / Jun 1, 17 23:52 UTC

@espheim(Asgardian) on 1 June 2017, 5:48 p.m.

Great article! However, it did not actually prove anything. It was simply a reference to an intelligent debate about religion. The more one understands about the world (and Universe), the less they need of faith about the old world...

As such, Asgardia should be a new direction where we have little requirement of faith and more necessity of evidence.

  Last edited by:  user 125756 (Asgardian)  on Jun 12, 01 / Jun 1, 17 23:53 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Jun 12, 01 / Jun 1, 17 23:56 UTC

@randellaa(Asgardian) on 1 June 2017, 9:10 p.m.

While your bill of rights does have a valid place in the Laws of Asgardia, it doesn't need to be verbatim in the Constitution. I agree that certain critical and fundamental rights should be expressed in the Constitution, but much of this should be relegated to substantive law.

Jun 13, 01 / Jun 2, 17 05:08 UTC

@ Lena De Winne - Please specify the period of voting on the Constitution is continued to June 18, or moved? Whether here before submitted an updated version of the project, taking into account all that was said on the forum, or it will put to a vote already? Left a little more than two weeks.

Jun 13, 01 / Jun 2, 17 05:27 UTC

I agree with Randellaa!

Jun 13, 01 / Jun 2, 17 10:05 UTC

It is wonderful to see Asgardia beginning to grow from concept into something more concrete. I congratulate you all for the hard work that has been put into this document. While for the most part, it seems workable, I have some major concerns.

Firstly, when setting out to create a new way of living, why are we adopting such an antiquated notion (and I say this as a British citizen) as Constitutional Monarchy? We do not need a monarch or a royal court. Nor should we introduce in any way, the notion of heredity, as a form of succession (which is included here, in the clause stipulating that the Head of State can submit offspring as successor). 

Monarch or President, the way the current Constitution stands, the Head of State has far too much power, basically making all of the important appointments, whilst holding the right to dissolve any parliament with which they disagree. This is a recipe for potential autocracy and there is no system in place to provide a check against that possibility.

It makes much more sense to adopt a Constitution that is based on a more democratic exercise and transition of power, rather than return to the worst of old Earth. I understand that the Monarch here is supposed to act as check and balance, but this is why we should have an independent judiciary and a second chamber, of some kind, that must ratify Parliament's decisions, before they are law. 

There is mention of closed sessions for parliament, under certain circumstances under the law. What circumstances and what law? Again, this opens the door to abuse.

MP have to be 40? And Royal Council members 60? Why? This is unnecessarily high. It will not only alienate an overwhelmingly youthful population, but it could create a chasm between governors and the governed. These age limits should be decreased by 20 years, in both cases.

There is much mention of taxes, little of how those funds will be spent.

Will Asgardia have a social security system? Will there be healthcare, free education and help for the elderly and unemployed? How will housing be priced and distributed, once we are off-planet? How will air, water and food be handled?

The notion of the Gor is difficult to understand. What exactly does "in the amount tied to the ideal parameters of the Moon set by a special law of Asgardia" mean? Also, why not use a more globally comprehensible term, like 'credit'. Gor seems totally arbitrary.

There is much talk of morality/immorality (and the mandating of punishment for those who spread immoral propaganda). This is a notoriously fluid term. Who decides what is moral/immoral? And what are these 'generally recognised international norms' that you refer to? UN standards? Western? Islamic? Christian? Buddhist? Because there are a lot of international norms to chose from and we, as a world, have not yet been able to agree on what they should be.

Lastly (and this is related to the preceding point), there is no mention of equal rights or protection under the law for non-heterosexuals (but quite a bit of mention of family, children and parenting). It is stated that prejudice based on " Earth country of birth, residence, citizenship, race, nationality, gender, language, wealth, creed or belief and other differences" is prohibited, why is there no mention of sexual orientation? Given that this is one of the last 'acceptable' prejudices in many parts of the world, I am dismayed that it is not included in this Constitution.

I appreciate this opportunity to raise my concerns and look forward to seeing how our collective feedback will filter into the revised Constitution.

Jun 13, 01 / Jun 2, 17 16:29 UTC

@espheim Asgardia considers ones religion, or lack of it, a personal choice. Therefore as is mentioned in the Concept and on the FAQ page, Asgardia does not take a stance regarding religion, or ones personal choices. However, respecting everyone's right to personal choices, also means that not everyone will make the same choices and must respect the right of each other. If you have any other questions just let us know.

  Last edited by:  Jewell Ledoux (Global Admin, Asgardian)  on Jun 13, 01 / Jun 2, 17 16:30 UTC, edited 1 time in total.