Vir 04, 01 / Jul 19, 17 21:15 UTC

Re: **Discussion** on Asgardia Constitution  

@Elwe Thor

Thank you for the reply to my message, I thoroughly enjoyed your breakdown and perspective on the matter. A keen eye and a good understanding of law and contract law. 

Indeed a lot seems to be a miss and I haven't been online for quite a while due to personal reasons. I seem to have jumped on to the 'sinking' ship at the last minute. I will certainly be watching this space and the actions of leadership much more closely from now on. 

I also liked your stance on decrees being an internal announcement, that's generally how I looked at them too seeing as we're currently nothing more than a virtual group online taking steps towards attempting to create a nation. I don't see anything good happening for this concept if things continue down this slippery slope. 

I am drawing ever closer to the fact that this entire thing is a sham, so much agenda is being pushed and correctness, decently and legitimacy is being thrown out the window.

Just so I have a properly informed opinion when was the dates of this vote supposedly run from and to? clearly, my vote at 2 am this morning was in over, over, over time by now. Had I seen the forums before voting I would abstain for certain. I instead spent 2 hours reading the documents under pressure that quite frankly is illegitimate by any correct and proper voting restrictions.

Vir 04, 01 / Jul 19, 17 22:34 UTC

@saminglis Fascism, racism, communism and totalitarism are prohibited by the constitution of Poland and rightfuly so. They already proved to be pure evil and destructive no matter how you look at them. Freedom of speech does not mean that anyone should be allowed to publicly applause concepts that killed millions upon millions. Just like freedom of speech doesn't mean you can threaten peoples lives and the democratic system of the country in which we're all equally valuable human beings. It's that simple.

Vir 05, 01 / Jul 20, 17 15:51 UTC

@SpiritualOne
Just so I have a properly informed opinion when was the dates of this vote supposedly run from and to? clearly, my vote at 2 am this morning was in over, over, over time by now. Had I seen the forums before voting I would abstain for certain. I instead spent 2 hours reading the documents under pressure that quite frankly is illegitimate by any correct and proper voting restrictions.

As per Decree n. 3, Voting Regulations' art. 1, "Voting will take place over the course of a 24-hour period on 1st Asgard (18th June 2017)", while Decree n. 6 (implicitly) amended that only article, stating that "the commencement of the preliminary voting period today, on 24 June 0001 (13 June 2017)", so establishing a "voting period" which goes from 13 june 00:00(UTC) up to 18 june 2017 24:00(UTC).
As there is no further decree stating something different, I've to recognize that, for Asgardia own internal law, established by the Head of Nation, the voting period officially ended at 24:00(UTC) of 18 june 2017 (or 1 Asgard 0001).
Further voting is just illegal at all.

As I previously wrote, as there is no Decree (so "official Asgardia law") at all, stating we was "citizens" (even if "on preferential basis") at the time/period of voting (ref. "Constituent Assembly"), the whole voting process have been carried out by users, so no "legal vote" have been casted at all.
They can keep the voting opened until they reach 1 billion votes even, but those will be "users" votes with no legal value the same.

Vir 08, 01 / Jul 23, 17 23:21 UTC

I'm glad to see I am not the only one who noted numerous flaws and contradictions in this constitution that is before us. I have not accepted the one currently up, nor do I intend to. Only having the choice to check a box and accept is ridiculous and unacceptable. When I first learned of Asgardia, I was excited. I am much less so now, though I do not give up hope.

  Updated  on Vir 15, 01 / Jul 30, 17 19:54 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: Spelling

Vir 16, 01 / Jul 31, 17 03:22 UTC

@Kristina - what about christianity, islam, bhuddism, kingdoms, dictatorships, libertarianism, democracy...????

Even a cursory glance at history shows that all the above have been, and are currently, responsible for declaring war, killing millions of innocent people, marginalising people, destroying countries, land, environments just for the sake of having something that others have or just for pure lust for power.

If you start to name specifics in a document that is supposed to hold principles then you either miss something and allow for some other specific to become the defacto "only" way/thing/etc or you miss something out and those who follow that something get upset (witness the outcry when LBGT is left out of a list of rights).

It is not the ideology that is "pure evil", it is the people who follow a principle of getting what they want at the expense of others.  That is why documents of this nature should be broad principles and the minutia of the enactment of the principle is contained in the legislative documents.  

Poland's current constitution is the result of a knee-jerk reaction to situations the country and it's people faced at the hands of various "evil people" who advocated that they followed various ideologies, over a relatively short period of time.  Poland itself has been involved in inflicting hardship on other peoples in times past, especially during the boleslaw period.  It is not sensible to argue that specifics should be entered into one document of principle based on another flawed document.

  Last edited by:  Paul Bellamy (Asgardian)  on Vir 16, 01 / Jul 31, 17 03:24 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Vir 16, 01 / Jul 31, 17 12:22 UTC

As a matter of fact, as Lena De Winne is used to tell that her words are Dr. Ashurbeyli's ones as directly coming from him, I can't understand why she didn't enact a decree to state that "Asgardia's users are citizens at the time/period of voting", and another to state the "the voting process is extended up to <whatever reason>", so to have at least a legal voting process to enact the Constitutional draft, leaving all this to semi-official "whispers" (AKA FB or forum's posts).

Lib 08, 01 / Aug 20, 17 19:02 UTC

" christianity, islam, bhuddism, kingdoms, dictatorships, libertarianism, democracy"

Asgardia is not a place for religions, they will nothave an influence there in case you weren't aware. They're just harmful scams so we learned from the past here.

Kingdoms still exist and there's nothing wrong with them so not sure what your point is.

Dictatorships proved to be fucked up and will not be practiced in Asgardia cause - again - we learned from the past.

Libertarianism and democracy never directly harmed anyone tho they're not flawless. 

Fascism and communism are impossible to practice on any level without seriously harming humanity which we learn by studying history, economy, psychology and sociology alltogether.

Constitution actually is supposed to be pretty precise about some matters.

Lib 20, 01 / Sep 1, 17 08:03 UTC

@Kristina - I'm not sure how the people of croatia, syria, serbia, iraq, france (during the various wonderful revolutions of libertarianism), Tibet (Before china stepped in), Thailand (the muslim minority), all the countries that Britain invaded etc etc etc would feel about your assertion that democracy and libertarianism have never harmed anyone.  Without meaning in any way to be offensive I would suggest you take that cursory glance I mentioned in the previous post.

For the sake of staying on topic humans appear to utilise any means possible to inflict their will on others, so adding minutia of legal law into a document of principle leaves room for an individual to interpret that as the only law. This leaves all other things people might do open to persecution and prosecution.  This happens because we try to cover every possible circumstance with these lists of what should and shouldn't be done rather than stating a principle and looking at each situation from the point of view of the principle. This is the regrettable state of our present litigious societies - most of which claim to be democratic or libertarian in some manner.

I applaud your desire to build a new society but repeating the methodology which allowed the problems of the past is not the way to a establish a "better" new thing. Rapturous claims that we have learned and are a new space colony are truly not realistic.  This is a big venture that requires the utmost care and the most realistic and unbiased thought processes.  It is a political mine field which cannot be seen to be in any way leaving out, favouring or persecuting any item of interest.  Lists of things that are acceptable or not acceptable thinking in legal documents automatically designate lines in the sand that can be misinterpreted with dramatic and dreadful results.

On another matter, please remember none of us are the spokesperson for Asgardia or the people of Asgardia and we are not the voice of the majority (whatever that might mean). Therefore it is not really your position to state categorically (or with any authority for that matter) what will and will not be practiced or believed within Asgardia. You may wish for Asgardia to be a certain way however you cannot state that it will be the way you wish. You simply don't have that authority.  Secondly by making such sweeping, aggressive and politically totalitarian statements your argument is rendered void. The reason is that you are making a religion out of not allowing others to have their own personal and private beliefs within Asgardia.  And you are dictating (in your democratic urgency) what people in Asgardia can and cannot do and think.  Effectively you are proving my point and becoming a totalitarian dictator.

Also the statements you posted about religion are absolutely not in line with what is written in both the DoU and the Constitution, as they both specifically mention that we are not to make judgments based on religion. This indicates that religion is a personal private belief system which you (personally) have no right to specify will not be within Asgardia.  I personally have no use for religious convention however I believe you are not showing tolerance, maturity or dignity by relegating other people's personal beliefs with the level of disdain and lack of knowledge shown in your post. The DoU specifically states that we are to accept and live with people of all belief systems as long as they are following a principle of unity and concern for others, leading to a growth oriented outlook. 

Lastly please do not assume your idea of democracy and libertarianism is the same as everyone else's.  I am quite sure (at least I would hope) your enthusiasm for libertarianism is not the same as that enacted during the french revolution.  And please do not say "we have learned from that" because the enactment of similar attitudes happened very recently during the problems in croatia, serbia and south africa to name just a very few. 

I understand you are anxious and excited about creating the best society possible and wish to remove areas which you feel are intolerant to your own experience. This is a great ideal and needs to be lauded. However if you wish to show tolerance then show it. Learn about others and why they think what they do. Don't try to dictate to others what they can and cannot think.

The funny thing about "rights" is that if I feel I have the "right" to do/think/believe something and the "right" to have others accept it then I really have to admit that every other person also must have the "right" to do/think/believe the exact opposite to me and I also must accept that. Unfortunately this is something we seem to edit out of our list of what we think others should and shouldn't do/think/believe.


Lib 20, 01 / Sep 1, 17 11:45 UTC

Si antes de pensar, de ejecutar cualquier acción, comunicar algo, colaborar, formar parte de un colectivo, etc, dejamos de lado cualquier interés personal, habríamos evitado muchas malas cosas en la historia. El interés individual no tiene vida en Asgardia. Intentemos autoanalizarnos para construir por un interés común.

Un abrazo.

------------------------

If before thinking, executing any action, communicating something, collaborating, being part of a collective, etc., we ignore any personal interest, we would have avoided many bad things in history. Individual interest has no life in Asgardia. Let us try to self-analyze to build for a common interest.

A hug.

Lib 21, 01 / Sep 2, 17 09:45 UTC

Interesting.  Some thoughts...

Under the Constitution of the State of Oklahoma, some laws that were considered and regarded as INALIENABLE rights of human beings were RESERVED by the people of my country against ALL FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC GOVERNMENTS IN PERPETUITY.  Among these were Article II section II-1, which states that ANY person has the right to dissolve or modify their government, and that no sovereign power exists save in the individual human being who licenses it to a party and can without consent or limitation to include the very name and identity of that entity - take it back at any time without cause.


So.... as these rights are inalienable, and they are incorporated as a RIDER CLAUSE in the Constitution of the United States to be binding to all other 49 States and U.S. territories, and such charter conditional in the recognition also of the United Nations, such claims that Asgardia as an oligarchy are able to deny the power to break away or modify or overthrow or otherwise suspend the government of "The Space Kingdom of Asgardia" (SKA) while involving United States Citizens (contracted in this right, superior any tort or other waiver as inalienable rights) and as American residents of such territory or state where these pre-existing soverign powers are recognized and enumerated, I see no reason to tolerate the fraud that the King or Parliment hold any power whatsoever where any portion of those entitled to the claim as Asgardian citizens set forth in Article 42 and 43 of the Constitution of the Space Kingdom of Asgardia may dissent.


Otherwise facing absolute and binding legal backing of the United States to obstruct, deny recognition, and oppose those rebel factions who seek to disenfranchise these persons of their right of suffrage guaranteed in contract in the prior Article 42 and 43 charter, and such activity a felony (18 USC 241) in those territories.


As such, to proceed in the interest of the goals stated by the SKA, to obtain recognition as a country and to obtain peer standing with the United States and others, this conduct to defraud the people in claim of ratification must cease, and fiat claims of noble or sovereign power over persons solicited to join or whose identities are used in publicity to promote Asgardia without their consent in false claims and acts not in compliance with the solicitation end immediately.


Alternatively, a lawful separation of those persons from the project namespace (Domain) to carry on with full legitimacy of the original charter and in control of all property and assets of such investment and products including data and orbital vehicles may be transferred fully, citing failure to comply with the initial solicitation and overt intent to deny rights by false claims in solicitation for participation in the project.


This is fairly standard case law, and should be obvious to any attorney in any country of record, as described in the Articles of Rome governing trade contracts and tort.

Sco 05, 01 / Sep 14, 17 05:51 UTC

According to Chapter 8, Article 32, 8. The Head of Nation may be removed ... b. the Prosecutor General accusing the Head of Nation of treason or other major crime ...

but 9. The Head of Nation: a. appoints and removes ... the Prosecutor General

that seems like a bad idea, there should be a provision which prevents the Head of Nation to remove the Prosecutor General or the Supreme Justice of the Court while being investigated for said crimes

Sco 05, 01 / Sep 14, 17 07:35 UTC

in Chapter 10. Article 48. the last sentence is missing a t at the end: "formation of the Parliamen."

Cap 03, 01 / Dec 5, 17 04:04 UTC

There are alot of issues with the current constitution.
I a am in the process of a complete constitutional rewrite.

Here is my  Commmentary on the Constitution.

I am a Candidate for District #1 and here is my well organized 24 page Complete Platform on Google Docs.





  Last edited by:  James O'Neill (Asgardian)  on Cap 03, 01 / Dec 5, 17 04:08 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times

Cap 03, 01 / Dec 5, 17 04:05 UTC

delete

  Last edited by:  James O'Neill (Asgardian)  on Cap 03, 01 / Dec 5, 17 04:06 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Cap 03, 01 / Dec 5, 17 05:04 UTC

After just searching I find:

33.C states 'The Parliament shall issue resolutions on matters within its purview, pursuant to the Constitution and laws of Asgardia. The parliamentary procedure for adopting Acts and responsibility for violation of this procedure shall be set by the parliamentary law.'

34.7.c states 'The Government’s powers shall include: developing and introducing bills to the Parliament;'

One thing I found when reading through it is that they mention various instruments, but they do not define them. Things are very unclear. I have such questions as:

What is a Resolution and how are they made? What is their scope of power? How do they compare to a passed Referenda? What is a statutory instrument? How will it compare to a decree, referendum, or resolution?