Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 19:20 UTC

Re: Discussion of the Second draft Constitution  

The age restrictions are ridiculous. You need to be 40-50 before holding any kind of official position?

Also, I love the idea of "no political parties" but that's going to be impossible to prevent without actual legal language. I'd like to see laws specifically banning them. But I have no idea how you'd write that.

Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 19:24 UTC

@Buck Rogers why all this mess? many people who like this project are not happy with the constitution as it is (as the fact less then 1/6 of asgardians accepted it demonstrate), and were not given the democratic possibility to just vote "NO" as it was originally meant to be, and the constitution itself states that yesterday (18th of june) would have been the deadline for the vote to reach at least half of total citizens number, which has not, and now they indefinitely extended it (contradicting their own constitution and decrees and behaving in a very non-democratic and corrupted way, contrary to what their constitution promotes) instead of dumping it and join the people and try to write a new one in line with what asgardians want for asgardia (I remind you less than 1 in 6 asgardians accepted the constitution as it is, and this considered some probably voted it just to be able to upload the file and vote for the other things, and the fact you are forced to accept it to be able to do theese things again contradict the constitution and is not very democratic), you want some secrets, corruption and nefariousness? well there you have some.
So, people just want to be sure the final constitution don't make asgardia some crazy space monarchy o worse, a dictatorship, and it's very likely considering the contitution as it is now, and the line of conduct of the government until now. I see no problem in @LoreZyra doing his (democratic) best to make sure this whole things doesn't turn into madness, and subsequently people supporting him, and all that thing about secret groups and rebel alliances, well, that just look delusional conspiracy from someone who probably just like the idea of a space monarchy and think that the constitution as it is is acceptable, which clearly is not.

Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 19:26 UTC

Unfortunately, a 'political party' can be a vague description. Given it is not quantified in any meaningful manner, it could consist of people who support a particular type of action (example: abortion), a particular candidate, or even a religious belief. As such, it is unenforceable without further clarification.


Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 19:36 UTC

Thank you Phicksur for summarizing!

Back to topic. LoreZyra, if you would be willing to incorporate comments on the Constitution into your posts above as edits, then we could, in nice cooperation of all, collect and merge all comments into one document at the end. Additionally, all comments should be written in a way for LoreZyra to directly "copy& paste" into his posts.

It's hard to keep up on the posts, so it would be nice to have only one place to look for updates.

Regards, temir

Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 19:36 UTC

@petrv I agree, ancient Greeks had that two thousand years ago, it's good on paper but in reality it just doesn't work.

Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 19:51 UTC

Our group was so secret we had a Global Admin amongst us (as @phicksur told: @Jason Rainbow).
To be honest, I've to say I didn't invite him, nor did other rebels, but we even didn't ban him too: he was there and up to him to stay or leave, as he is a volunteer into Asgardia, "one of we, the people", not an official.

Two reasons to make a Discord group for ourselves (and yes, we called it "rebels" as a joke, obviously, thus the "insignia"):

  1. at the time we was discussing, here in the forum, about the 1st Constitutional draft, we opened even "parallel threads" where to talk about other details: at some time admins, in the person of @Zahira (but I'm sure it could have been everyone of them, it doesn't matter at all) started closing all (our) parallel threads, with the excuse "they (mods/admins) had difficult to gather all suggestions into the main thread" (even if we never asked them to do that).
    As that was into their "powers" (their forum, their rules), that's why we preferred to create a parallel channel where to talk without someone had the power to close it: this thing have a name, and its name is "freedom of speech".

  2. Despite we was asking since months for an internal Private Messaging system, IT team was busy elsewhere, so we had to find another tool: no need to see it as "closed doors", we just invited the ones with who we was talking before the massive thread closing.

That for the records.

Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 19:51 UTC


Fundamentally, I think you are probably right. However, I think there is at least one method which could potentially remove the need for political factions. Rather than allying yourself with a particular party (as a candidate, or a voter, but more importantly the candidates), you can use a system where each person who wants to make it known their opinions on such public matters, will fill out a questionnaire of sorts. I am firmly of the belief that no one is completely liberal, or completely conservative; by implementing this sort of policy, a voter can truly understand all of the policies of someone they may be voting for, and how they align to their specific beliefs.

In addition to this, you would also need to implement something else that I have proposed called the Alternative vote. You can see a more detailed description here (Re: Which Constitution would you want, if you had to choose today?), but basically it would be a ranking system that automatically knocks out fringe candidates and doesn't rely on any specific "parties".

Food for thought,


Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 20:46 UTC

I'm not saying your idea is right or wrong, I just can say it's well thought (but I'm not surprised at all).
I've one question only: despite it seems something which can work on "average/big" things, like a referendum but not on day by day laws making/amending, how can you "force" (I'm sure you won't ;-)) the people to "take part" to the government if them, even if it's their own major interest, refuses even to take part to Constitution's voting?
The question I made is based on data, even if not absolutely precise ones: over 700.000 accounts signed in, over 200.000 (28,6%) confirmed their registration, less than 40.000 (20%) voted for the Constitution (at the moment)... and ok, we'll never know how much would vote "no", but the numbers (we have) are there to see.
Your method should work if having good percentage of involvement, I mean 60-70% or it may become an oligarchy (I'm sorry to say we're having something similar into a party-like "movement" in Italy nowadays, and it's really far from democratic, despite the fact they're calling themselves that way).

Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 21:31 UTC

@Elwe Thor

Well put, and I agree that we need much better participation for any nation to work. As to whether or not the method would work, I think this is dependent on what is done with abstentions. If abstentions don't count as a yes or a no towards the vote, then those citizens who choose not to partake in the process are at a loss.


Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 22:56 UTC

I'm so sorry to asgardians everywhere for being a disruption to this post as I obviously am as all those with Rebel alliance tags have proven.

I will not comment here any further here except to say and correct. 

I have been signed to the site since I returned home, 3 days ago, unable to complete my profile page,  unable to post anywhere except my blog and unable to vote until today.  

if I was in the this was then position then likely so are the other people who recently joined. as a group you cannot advocate for all asgardians and exclude those who are new this is selectionism at its greatest.  So I applaud whoever took the unpopular route and extended the voting days so that all people who signed up before the 18th were able to complete there voting.

I'm sorry that my original post while meant as a question and attack upon the motives of a staff member who is running for a political office not the person has been perceived as such.  yet it still dunmb founds me how it could not have been answered and has taken so many people to defend this person and make me look like a villain to the community I have only just been able to participate in.  

I'm sorry that this group of people that have created so many of these posts have taken an us verses officials stance on everything rather than trying to find a middle ground or as suggested agree and amend from the inside.  
I'm sorry no one read the document and discovered that they were welcome to leave at any time as 6.4 says... 

I will stop now before I end with so many more people of the rebel army or whatever you jokingly call your schoolyard bullyboy group. 

I agree enough is enough of difficult questions I will go back to watching and bleeting 

Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 23:45 UTC

@guzlomi Sadly, I think I agree with you, this doesn't seem something that can be changed to me, the intentions of the team behind this site are beginning to be quite clear, they created it, they probably put a lot of money in it, they have absolutely no reason in completely change what they clearly have in mind for it because we want to, it's their creation.
 I don't blame anyone who will stay and still try to change things as the concept was really good and I wish you people will succeed, but it's probably best to just leave at this point. I too will remain here to see what will happen in the future.
Anyway, this project has attracted a lot of attention from the world lately, so I think it's likely that some other project similar to this (but better, I hope. maybe a nation that plans to claim territory on mars, since that is way more realistic than a giant space station, especially after what Elon Musk revealed to been working on) will raise in the near future, I look forward to it, and I hope to see you all there.

I know there are quite crazy people in the world, but spending all this money on a twisted project that is likely to explode in your face is damn crazy, are we sure this is not some kind of alternate reality game (this happened in the past, look at Halo 2 viral campaign "I Love Bees") or some kind of social experiment?

Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 23:49 UTC

The "involvement problem" can be solved when "citizens" feels them as... "citizens", not like some kind of guests, "users" on no preferential bases, which can (and had) be banned at will with no return.
Citizens have to be proud of their nation... proud!
But here what have we to be proud of? to be treated like "peasants" by a king who doesn't even like to speak with us? I never saw any Igor's post, just a couple of videos and some decrees (some of them also broken by his own acts), and nearly no posts by any of the officials... come on... they simply can't be that busy, to leave their own creature, the nation, to sink just as they lacked the communication side that much, leaving it all on admins' and mods' shoulders: it's not something admins/mods can handle here by their own (so they just try to climb glass walls... and make things going worst).

This situation, despite the thousand times we, the "peasants", warned the officials by means of admins/mods (wondering if our advices at least reached them at all), become to a so bad point to form the (classic) "two sides and a barricade" scheme... which is terrible, if trying to make a nation to birth. And the proofs are evident to everyone just takes a minute to look: despite having a week, instead of a single day, despite extending that week "indefinitely"... the quorum will be met, maybe, into 2020 at this growth rate.

Someone may think I can be happy saying these things... I'm not.
For the few work and effort I put into this project, I did it... so, seeing it wasted is not something which is making me happy at all.
No need of eagle's sight to recognize @guzlomi's words are right, one after the other (and he worked so hard, on the Constitutional draft too).
What can we do? nothing at all: if the management choose not to listen to us, we can't force them doing it: we can just "say" things, not force others to "listen".

Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 00:05 UTC

Hey, Buck, I want you to know that the only barriers that exist are those that were present when I got here. This isn't 'us versus them' in as much as it is 'knowing what the fuck is going on vs being spoon-fed tiny pieces of information and even then only, usually, upon request'.

The reasons I ask so many questions of the administrators are multitude. 

For starters, I can't ask Igor. Igor lives in a gilded castle far above and removed from we citizens here on the forums. I am certain he seems like a nice man. According to his body language and general demeanor he comes across as a genuinely nice fellow. Unfortunately, none of we citizens can speak to him. That right is reserved for the administration, who either selectively choose what to share with him, give him everything and he doesn't read it or just don't give him anything. The people are separate from their leader by the design of the system itself.

For second, the questions I ask do not usually specifically pertain to me. I read the general sentiment of the population (both the rebels and administration) and put forth questions in a clear manner that leave no possibility for misunderstanding and then patiently await the answers to be shared with everyone. The administration either does not know how to speak to the general populace, chooses not to, or doesn't imagine that we might want to know the answers to questions that might pertain to our lives as Asgardians. 

There are more reasons, but most are minor. The bottom line is that the division we have between administration and those who are not administration is that those in administration know stuff and don't easily share unless they end up getting put on the spot by someone asking questions. Thus, it has become a battle just to find out basic information with their side holding things close to their chests (either because they don't know, or don't know how to articulate, or are afraid of badly articulating something) and the other side desperately trying to tear that information out of their hands to be shared with everyone.

The bond of trust was broken long ago when the information stopped flowing freely. The only way for the trust, and our collective bond, to be reforged is for information to once again flow as freely as possible, get rid of all of these stupid goddamned secret groups and meetings, and just put EVERYTHING out into the open. Are things working properly? Hell no, EVERYONE can tell that, but no one admits to anything. There are too many secrets.


Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 01:01 UTC

Well, the information politics here were an issue from the beginning and will be (if they do persist) a threat to the project in the future, or more drastically, the reason to fail.

  Updated  on Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 01:01 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 06:05 UTC

Soo time to hijack this thread , and finally also say "publicly" something - like dear Elwe Thor sarcastically annoyed me with, on the Asgardia Gaming Discord
First of all, thank you @Buck Rogers
- a huge thank you for your time, position, and statements 

Another one goes to @phicksur - for being active on the Asgardia Gaming Discord (findable in the gaming section of the forums) and saying here some vise words
Soo what has it now to do with my "random" response - as some of the people here may want/will or may pretending already pretending to state

Simple, I'm pissed :D

I'm pissed about the turned back responses for our lovely Rebellion Group,
and I'm pissed since a long time about what this mass collection of humans "developed" | well congratulation humanity

You know why I'm exactly pissed ?!?
- not because of the bullying that Buck already mentioned , and that you try to disagree with the fact is it happened and even now happens (pls don't come up with other responses, I mean now only the bullying
(reopening 10th and ongoing threads about useless discussions , group-like going towards one person you just don't like, restarting / repeating and spreading mass propaganda about this "open" yep not closed wonderful group of similar minded people - with even their Wonderfull reused Star Wars symbol)

- also not because of the fact, that all goes perfectly together (a little wish , pls don't above and following part of my statement in pieces ... thank you)

              > (first of all starting to write down an own system you prefer - after ?!? the first draft by decree n.4 announced constitutional draft long time ago
                 - well no pointing towards any "random" intentions at this time)
                 {but yes - good for you, surely costed a lot of time, and you have my respect towards that one - if it is not something copy pasted from another regime}
              > 2nd, working together with the community - still interpreting your early on wished ideas and afterwards being pissed barely anything from it got accepted
              > 3rd, because barely anything got accepted - you still didn't gave up and started to look for similar minded people here on the forum
              > 4th, well welcome dear future friend Thor - you did an amazing job on showing us all
                 - only the worst sides of Igor :'D, of the constitution draft, of how blind and sh*tty we are all following this constitution,
                 - and building up from now on a neat private group of similar minded people | well yes you are right - it's not LoreZyra's group , he has nothing with it do :^)
              > 5th, now while you start to collect especially people who dislike the constitution
                 - you Thor, are getting petrv on board and afterwards following the search for other similar minded people | by using our lovely discord group as an user collective
              (still till this point only mystical - nothing more nothing less)
              > 6th, now stuff starts to get interesting | the informative conference started and you all still worked wonderfully together on a new constitution "draft"
                 - the interesting begins right after the conference
              (people aren't able to follow simple sentences from the conference, needing myself to restate, re'mention and quote even minute to minute synched sentences
                 - so the confused people who spread different theses about illegal decrees or illegal voting regulations | get their minds together (well we kinda saw the new topics)
             > 7th, now after my "once a friend" Elwe Thor got proven wrong by this posting and who knows what discussion followed up on those (lovely skipped these one)
                 - we got to know about leaked Wikileaks topics about how "manipulated" we seem to be from Ashurbeyli itself - making him look as the next ISIS Leader :'D
                 -  well that one got sorted out , after someone re-stating again from the conference - that all our existence and project is for peace of the humankind only-!
                 - lMO who knows it rly got into peoples mind, that this is never planed to be any blind followed dictatorial rulement , like it is in Northern Part of Korea
             > 8th, so people got how this whole parliament election system worked and our little (on this time only "non existing" :^) "rebellion" / group of people)
                 - started to continue working together on their Wonderfull plan spreading panic and hate towards the people
                 - and making them having like "no other choice" - then going for their humankind saving new constitution draft , we are here looking at
                 (relinked so many times on other postings including spreading it who knows where + our peaceful Gaming Discord Group which got to an conference center) >_>
             > 9th, now also other people got annoyed by all this - some left , some where "manipulated / let's say persuaded" towards all this wonderful mass of new topics
                 - but still all from the same people, towards the same intention | making all look like innocent questioning , but still re'questioning about the existence of asgardia
             > 10th, it got to the point where even the civic asgardia team had to keep an eye towards our Wonderfull Rebellion Group and people got convinced to their ideology
             > 11th, is now the current point - we had like everything | from making asgardia look like the next 3rd WW , to people abusage, to using all this hate
                 - and making our new parliamental candidate LoraZyra, the world saver angel and what so ever of all this mess (that actually all they themselves created)
             > 12th , is the thing I'm letting all people self come up to | but I mean , why won't you also stir up the mod team "against me" - the "biggest" of all insulters x'DD
                 - PS: i'v accepted the constitution , and am typing under my personal view and by fully free will, without anyone behind my statements or any other support-!