Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 06:05 UTC

Re: Discussion of the Second draft Constitution  

- KK, and the last thing I'm actually more pissed then this little cosy group here is following:

What are we of a wonderful collective of people, who started to lose trust on each other ?!?
Didn't Igor by himself state "trust me and work with me together, so we can build something beautiful new"
Didn't he state such directly "you don't know anything from me, and I don't know anything about you ... so no one has the reason to mistrust the other one"
Did he rly never mention "The constitution will change a lot , like we all will change in the future" ?
And again I'm asking our wonderful black clothed Rebellion Group - what is now at the end your goal ?!?
Splitting most people all apart , trying to destroy Igor's wish he had towards all of us to trust him, and overall making more and more people to leave
(you'll ask why , or with what intuitions / means - playing the white colored innocent black sheep everywhere, except towards your comrades

             > I'm free to restate it again:
                  - with this path you are chosen to follow the only "good" thing you do - Is let us other remain and people work together and never ever support such plans

You especially Elwe Thor, made me interested in arguing with you | more like forced to get my a** up to date with what we know, and what we are allowed to know :D
- and especially some thanks to @picksur again for the last words

The biggest problem we actually all should take care of as a group, is to change the way information is handled - and for now just trust Igor (like he asked us all)
As the more you argue how "broken" all the system is - the less future you especially will have

I'm happy with this version of the constitution i'v voted for, and I am happy for the next several months that will come - on what this one is based and will let Igor build up our places to work, and also overall create the economy we need to have

If you all dear Rebellion members would put the whole effort you do in arguing with people who will never ever state your intuitions and methods of working -> in maybe work with all persons together (never less how much you like/dislike) any of them | as long as we are moving forward
Maybe like a felt in love person, can't see anymore the reality outside of your "Fight for the Freedom" black glasses | but you are only making us and the mod/admin team problems - then actually working together so we can get faster forward

Now I know you will argue , ugh he did so much, what did you do - why are you so ungrateful and disrespectful
You know my dear , respect is earned towards actions and both sided trust

I'v stated it also several times on the Discord itself - every person I get to speak and chat with , starts from 0 - only their actions (not any word of others) show me what kind of persons they are , and how the behave as a whole
They may look like innocent sheeps, but are just recolored black ibex - or maybe some call them black bears

So I'm sorry to tell you, but the way you are doing things, they way you are treating persons - forcing up your opinions on them , the way you are spamming topics after topics (even creating one full topic only for the man Buck Rogers - who only shares his looks on the current situation) 

- the whole way you behave will NEVER make me vote for anyone of you

And now that this hopefully should be made you rethink something of my statements - even if it is just a little thing | or who knows , feel free to come up with the most creative insulting methods you can - I as an asgardian who accepted the constitution , allow you to use my rights under free speech and insult , troll or do what ever makes you happy towards my name and me itself (soo the mods can freely look away this time)

But I can guarantee you 3 things

- if you start to be d**ckheads in our peaceful Asgardia Gaming Discord , you will directly get kicked out - because we want to have peace there-!
- you can still do whatever you like , I mean who am I to tell you what to do, but if you go against any person who may disagrees your way of work , I will always be there to comment some Wonderfull new lecture why your methods are wrong :'P
- and 3rd , and for now last one ... start to rethink (each one of you not all together) why you even registered beeing an asgardian , when the only thing you do Is create hate , break trust and in simple words want to destroy anything that we will build up  | so for god's sake (sorry hahaha) ... leave permanently, if you hate it being asgardians and can't accept anything from Igor or overall his system and methods of working-!

... oh i forgot one more thing, your setted minimum user count is invalid - it can and will always be invalid for this constitution

You can not have a rule inside a rule inside a rule - the stated constitution rules only count towards next votes and never ever towards this one 
As there is no decree that states a minimum required voting count - this constitution by now 2nd Asgard is fully active and valid as it is 
We needed a no button and yes, we needed a decree for fixing some basic laws | but it is like it is - live with it and then work together so such unprofessionalism never happens , or restrain and let us happy asgardians in peace

Thank you

- Veii

Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 06:58 UTC

@Veii I understand english is not your native language, but damn try to write a little better it's hard to understand a single word of your post

Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 07:49 UTC

And the topic is still "Discussion of the Second draft Constitution".

Guys, i understand that you need to express yourselves - but can we then just please start a new topic?

I want to see the second draft moving forward. But all i do is reading your battle why the constitution is sh*t. I agree with most concerns, but this is not the place to talk about this.

As stated by others, if we proceed as we do it right now, then we will not move forward. So please if you want to discuss your opinions (and I willing to join it as a reader) on the core idea of asgardia or the evil plan of Igor Ashurbeyli to rule as dictator, open a new topic and let this one for those who want to contribute to the second draft of the constitution.

At least it is disrespectful to LoreZyra to flood his attept to change things we are all have concerns about with discussion which are not directly related to this topic.


Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 08:02 UTC

My original post, that was twisted to make me look like a fruit cake was how is the gentle man that created this post qualified to question the intent of the LEGAL nature of the constitution. 

I place LEGAL as this is how is insinuates in most sections of the forum (where he pushed his own document repeatedly) that the LEGAL team behind it were not.  

So it is very much on point as question regarding the pre-ratification version of the constitution 

Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 08:12 UTC

I'm sorry Jason I will try to in future but I feel it is very much on topic to ask the legal background and moral standing of the person that is questioning the current proposal with such venom and proposing that there personal version that they were working on long before the official version was created, that I must add, when first published stated it is based upon the official one.  yet here says it was started long before.  

Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 08:58 UTC

Im sorry again Jason, but again relevant to statement that have been made here


No rebel army  or secret groups being made here right.

Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 10:20 UTC

Thanks, Jason, for the remind. I've to apologize somewhat too, even if I tried to remain on topic and avoid personal attacks (which, by the way, are against CoC art. 2.2).
I didn't ask to "correct" that "OT behavior" before as, from one side, I still consider the personal freedom of speech over all and, on the other side, I know you admins watch all the forum very closely.
I've to add, if needed, one can open other threads (as @petrv suggested to @Buck Rogers) to discuss different topics, even if I don't think that, even there, one can infringe the CoC.

@Buck Rogers
You're more than welcome to come there (let me help you on linking ;-)) to discuss each and every point me or other asgardians wrote. just remember that is italian chapter so, at least, please attach such translation, if you're so inclined. We're ever in need of people with good arguments.

That said, I'm not sure there is a need to say I found the point-by-point comments by @LoreZyra very well thought, just didn't commented his comments further as, all those points, we commented one by one, more and more times, in the famous "nights" (and previous months) when we tried to amend the Constitutional draft... I'm sorry to say that, now, I know Asgardia's Constitutional draft far better than my own country's one. At least Asgardia gave me a good reason to study it better: who don't know his own Constitution leaves himsef without protections.

The only thing I can say to @LoreZyra, the only advice I feel to give him, at this point, is not to continue "beating" this poor thing of a wannabe "Constitution": DIY, Lore, Do It Yourself... as we spoke so many times, you're more than able to create a better one. And, obviously not you alone: @lorditerator proposed a nice collaboration tool (don't it reminds you something? "collaboration tools"... something one who is now banned wanted so much... to be banned for that) but, if you prefer, I found even github very usable and, maybe, it gives a little more control on the creation's process. The fact our previous drafts have been trashed gives you the right to create a whole new one, IMHO.

What I wish to see is you, the good @Skieswanne, (I greatly hope) @guzlomi, @Bigred and others who knows the matter, like @MagistraNocte if I'm not wrong (e.g. I'm very confident that @ksauber and @Stryx whould join, given their wide and deep knowledge) to do a better one: maybe that also will be trashed as previously, but this is the only way we can say "we tried".
I'll be there too, the same as others, as usual, to give my "little bit", the whole I can do as I'm not that expert, as we're so incredibly "rebels", allow me to smile, that we don't care of the much time this costs us, we're constantly trying to have "something better"... well... for the people, as that's our starting point, everytime.

I know mine is kind of "unbalanced way", as "the people" is not the only subject on the balance. But, 'cause the very lack of interaction, here in the forum, the officials are giving us no other option than to speak with "everyone want to speak" so, the people (yes, even you, @Buck Rogers, as you're an asgardian the same as we are).

As you can see, @Veii, I'm not writing anything against persons. That's the way I like to post my thoughts, not "judging": I discuss, puntually, on things (the way they can be changed) but never throw mud on persons. Last but not least, if you'll make your post "readable", I'll read for sure.

No but... @Scarbs... the "secret army" are we, that discuss each and every argument on the (world readable) forum, and asked to have PM here, where all admins and officials can even read them. We that asked to have reported here, so (world) readable, all the things happening into Facebook, as many asgardians have no access there.

Sure not them that, apart not writing a single row here, where we can at least read it, are doing all their (unknown) things "behind the scenes" (@Rebekah Berg's verbatim words).
That's, at the very least, funny.

Worth noting that, even into Discord's "Asgardia Gaming" server, the admins' channel is closed to anyone is not an admin, a great example of clarity and transparence... but we are the "secret army", for sure! =D

  Last edited by:  Luca Coianiz (Asgardian)  on Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 10:36 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: P.P.S.

Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 10:22 UTC

@Buck Rogers, I'm sorry, but I am having a giggle at the irony of your post. Many asked similar questions about the mysterious and seemingly anonymous "legal team". The advice received that it would be a breach of privacy to divulge these details.

On the topic of the post, and speaking as someone who has over a decade of experience in law enforcement and legal compliance, the issues are to numerous to list in a single post. Vagueness, generalities, undefined terms and ambiguity are spread throughout the entire document.

Then there is the issue of the constitutional monarchy. Something that seems lost on everyone that is a fan boy/girl of a constitutional monarchy proposed for Asgardia is that today's constitutional monarchies evolved from historic absolute monarchies. This evolution was necessary to maintain stability in countries where the citizens were getting a little jittery about a monarch having absolute power and control over their lives.

The powers of the Head of State proposed for Asgardia does not go as far as an absolute monarchy, but they are also way beyond that of a "typical" constitutional monarchy.

As Thomas Jefferson once said:

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."

  Updated  on Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 10:25 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 10:35 UTC

[deleted, please remove]

  Last edited by:  Luca Coianiz (Asgardian)  on Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 10:36 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 16:12 UTC

Hi i suggest to create a constituent assembly who will draft a new constitution to be voted by a temporary national assembly.



Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 22:14 UTC

Having seen how things are going I think this whole project is either a vanity project for the dear leader or a complicated attempt to gether email addresses... too bad, was a nice idea. I am joining the rogue asgardians (nongardians?!) 

Jun 20, 17 / Leo 03, 01 23:44 UTC

@Elwe Thor Thanks for the invitation, I'll be frank: I'm rather pessimistic on the possibility of asgardia really changing, as I expressed before, nonetheless I think trying anyway it's the right thing to do, I'll be happy to join you and helping with what I can (I'm no lawyer), but after I'm done with my exams!

p.s. I'm Italian too

@guzlomi Well, this is some damn interesting project! I will be happy to participate in this project as well (in the limits of what I know and can do). I think going on the moon is troubles (no atmosphere to shield radiation, really too weak gravity, etc), and not really sustainable, and there's not really a reason to settle there, but it's a very interesting project anyway, maybe instead of our moon, we could consider some of the moons of saturn and jupiter.

anyway, for people that don't already know this, check what Spacex is working on:
If the course of events follows the plans of Elon Musk, a new asgardia-like project for a new nation could easily partnership with Spacex and bring a number of people on mars to claim territory and found a new nation, something that will eventually happen anyway (remember the American revolution?), could be a chance to do things right, and a little more fresh (all governments on the planet are based on really old models and constitutions, and this is creating problems worldwide), and maybe to base a nation on science and research (something asgardia should have been).
I don't know if I ever will be able to see another world in my lifetime, but I would be glad to help make this possible in the future.

Jun 21, 17 / Leo 04, 01 06:43 UTC

Curious find today! I noticed they have changed the current Constitution. It’s more than just a common courtesy to let people know there is new version. Given that these changes were made during the established voting period, it is highly doubtful that people who voted prior to these changes were made aware. Furthermore, per standard Contract law, all parties to an existing contract must be made aware of such changes regardless if they are pending or approved.  Such notice should be made with sufficient notice in time! I have not seen any notice to the fact from any official sources.

I found 92 changes between June 13 and June 21 releases. At least one of the articles were reverted to the 1st draft from May 18... I'm still comparing all 3 docs... May 18 vs June 21 and June 21 vs June 13.

Most of these changes are to fix grammatical errors. Curious they choose to add a specific number of Asgardians that “elected” Dr. Ashurbeyli back in January 2017 inside of Article 42. The significant change to Article 42 is in the voting terms. Odd to add “during the voting period” and not update Article 50 as it still refers to June 18, 2017...

Also, interesting: Chapter 1§2, they removed equal opportunity to space. They also reverted the age min age of the HoN from 40 back to 50... 

I’m glad to see they removed that weird restriction on the Amendment Article.

The most significant change is the Chapter 2 Article 2 where we are no longer a Constitutional Monarchy, but something more archaic - A Kingdom... Curious they insist to call the Good Doctor Head of Nation instead of King...
I fail to understand why they cannot simply explain, in detail, why we should be a Constitutional Monarchy. Just saying “Why not?” or “because there are so many other Constitutional Monarchies” on the planet is not a strong, compelling reason! One valid point in support of a Constitutional Monarchy is found in stable foreign relationships with other nation states as they will be able to consistently work with the same representative of our nation for long periods of time. This is in stark contrast with some democratic societies where that foreign representative is rotated out every few years.

As I have stated before, I’m not against a Constitutional Monarchy. However, there remains a number of issues that I desire to see brought to level with proper Citizen protections and Governmental checks and balances.

I encourage everyone to continue to work together and campaign the Administration and Executives of Asgardia to implement the community changes for which a significant number of intelligent individuals support. That is the purpose of this thread and posts within this forum.

  Last edited by:  Richie Bartlett (Asgardian)  on Jun 21, 17 / Leo 04, 01 06:49 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times

Jun 21, 17 / Leo 04, 01 13:28 UTC

There are so many things wrong with this constitution. A kingdom with no king? Ascaridia on other celestial bodies? If you're going to have a kingdom at least call them principalities. Age limits? Are you serious? At a time when the entire concept of age and human lifespan is being redefined. A national bank in the era of blockchains and crowdfunding? I'm disappointed that the best governmental structure that could be imagined is an antiquated parliamentary one. There are many concepts that have no place in a forward-looking constitution. Race being one of them, there is only one race, the human race(comprised solely of Homo Sapiens at the moment but that can and will change at some point). Mentioning race is just stupid, better to just say "for any Conceivable reason not related to personal choice." Don't even mention religion except to ban its mention in government, those terrestrial flames do not need to be given oxygen in space. I could go on but I'll just end with one final point. To mention freedom of speech in one line and to limit it in another is by and of itself fascist. 

P.S. I'm surprised and a little shocked that not a single word was mentioned regarding the rights of the impending sentient machines not to mention forms of sentient life not yet discovered or encountered. I guess I just set my hopes to high.

Jun 21, 17 / Leo 04, 01 15:17 UTC

@ jnittner(Asgardian) on 21 June 2017, 1:28 p.m.

P.S. I'm surprised and a little shocked that not a single word was mentioned regarding the rights of the impending sentient machines not to mention forms of sentient life not yet discovered or encountered. I guess I just set my hopes to high.

Hi Jnittner. Welcome to Asgardia.Space! For the topic of recognizing sentient machines, there have been mentions allocating rights to Artificially Intelligent machines in the past months. I might point out that "discovered alien intelligence" in Article §6 can include such A.I. beings. From a practical stand point, we don't have a need to have this definition that explicit at this time. The laws and Constitution can be amended at a later date when that proves necessary.

  Last edited by:  Richie Bartlett (Asgardian)  on Jun 21, 17 / Leo 04, 01 15:17 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time