Lib 05, 01 / Aug 17, 17 20:38 UTC

Re: Magna Carta Libertatum  

@Ann Griffith
This seems like "I agree with you but I can't do differently", and here I can agree with you: I'm a visitor, but you're a King's subject, you must obey, while I can argue and present ligical arguments.
If the king say "1+1=1,5" you've to go with that, while I can go with the wordlwide recognized "2".
Welcome in the wonderful era of kingdoms.

P.S.
I'm not, technically, "complaining": to complain one have to be "a part of" something. You may complain, me not. I'm "showing" you some facts. The fact you want to see them or refuse to see, it's up to you, not to me.

  Last edited by:  Luca Coianiz (Asgardian)  on Lib 05, 01 / Aug 17, 17 20:41 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: P.S. added

Lib 06, 01 / Aug 18, 17 06:34 UTC

@Ann Griffith

If you are voting Yes to something, like, say, a local bond issue or funding for local schools, that is how it works. You vote, it becomes law or it doesn't and lawmakers have to start over and improve it. If it becomes law it is supported by all the laws that came before it. And all of those laws are supported by that jurisdiction's Constitution—it is the basis of all laws.

Problem is, in the jurisdiction of Asgardia we drafted a Constitution and offered it to the citizenry to ratify it by a majority vote. Meaning, we all agree to make it the basis of all laws, or we don't. Except that never happened in Asgardia.

The Constitution was never made legal, it failed—approx only 35% voted in favor—and so currently we have no Constitution, no basis for our laws. You, I and anyone else can click "accept" all they want, but until the Constitution is ratified it is totally meaningless. A ratification process doesn't function in a manner where you vote for it—YAY! You win a prize—and become a citizen. That only happens *after* the Constitution is made a legal document and then you accept it as terms of your citizenship.

The situation we currently have is the leadership is pretending the Constitution was ratified and literally paying for an online advertising campaign to attract people that have no clue, telling everyone to come and join the club—just click Accept and you're in. Neato!—and adding all those "accept" clicks to the vote count for the ratification that already failed after the voting officially ended months ago—yet, strangely, the voting continues.

Have you ever seen an election process like that? Why have a structure of laws, voting,  or a constitution if they are meaningless and can be arbitrarily changed or dismissed by an email or a tweet?

But the leadership did something even worse than that. Buried way back in the website, in all the documents, on all the different pages where almost nobody can find things they wrote a document that says "if you don't vote Yes, we're going to kick you out of the club, you're no longer one of us."

Just last week, Asgardia Official group on FB posted that "we now have 100,000 Asgardians"—the exact number of people that clicked Accept. But, that's weird, because up til just a couple of weeks ago their advertising campaign was telling people they should become an Asgardian because nearly 300,000 already did and if they don't hurry they'll be left out.

With this lie, they are literally kicking out about 190,000 Asgardians.

Have you ever voted No in an election for, say, fixing street potholes, and because you didn't vote Yes the county revoked your driving privileges? No, of course not, voting doesn't work that way. Except in Asgardia, and various totalitarian countries, like North Korea.

  Last edited by:  Travin McKain (Asgardian)  on Lib 06, 01 / Aug 18, 17 08:19 UTC, Total number of edits: 3 times

Lib 06, 01 / Aug 18, 17 08:37 UTC

For clarification purposes:

The original intent of this post was to not complain about the Constitution but to give all the people who had been complaining about it a means to channel the constant bitching into a constructive motion for change.  

It now seems apparent to me if not anyone else in this community that this is not possible, and that any vehicle for change presented to them other than "forget it and start again with what I want" is not an option.  

The Magna Carta Libertatum was the first example in "modern" history of a written document that declared that all persons are equal.  It took some of the kings power away and made him answerable to many of the laws being established at the time.  


It was not a method that the barons and land owners used to bitch that the king had more than them, or that his power was given to him without consent.  It was a document designed to start a change in the founding rules of the governance of Britain.




Lib 06, 01 / Aug 18, 17 17:31 UTC

Ahahahahah... I'm sorry, Buck, let me quote a well known reference:

"Magna Carta Libertatum (Medieval Latin for "the Great Charter of the Liberties"), commonly called Magna Carta (also Magna Charta; "(the) Great Charter"),[a] is a charter agreed to by King John of England at Runnymede, near Windsor, on 15 June 1215.[b] First drafted by the Archbishop of Canterbury to make peace between the unpopular King and a group of rebel barons,  it promised the protection of church rights, protection for the barons  from illegal imprisonment, access to swift justice, and limitations on feudal payments to the Crown, to be implemented through a council of 25 barons."
(ref. wikipedia)

So, exactly, which "all persons are equal" are you speaking about? The Church? The Barons?
That apart, and taking in count I'm not implied in the process (both having given a whole Constitutional draft by myself (et al), and being "a visitor"), I've to repeat myself: "(...) you simply lack the powers, to make King Igor the First to sign a Space Magna Charta to give you, the people, his powers, at the whole or even in part".

  Last edited by:  Luca Coianiz (Asgardian)  on Lib 06, 01 / Aug 18, 17 17:36 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Lib 06, 01 / Aug 18, 17 17:36 UTC

@Buck Rogers

It is perfectly reasonable for people to object to the subversion of both accepted international legal structure and voting practices and the very regulations and decrees created by Asgardian leadership itself. Moreso, when that subversion blatantly disregards any viewpoint that doesn't further their deceitful agenda.

Suggesting otherwise firmly illustrates that you have zero regard for the rule of law and are nothing but an apologist stooge for Asgardia's corrupt leadership.

  Last edited by:  Travin McKain (Asgardian)  on Lib 06, 01 / Aug 18, 17 17:37 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Lib 06, 01 / Aug 18, 17 19:08 UTC

@Buck Rogers,

You have already alluded to failure of the constitution to declare a specific date for quorum of acceptance... However, you have yet to state any other area where you believe improvement was needed (beyond this weak topic)...

Lib 13, 01 / Aug 25, 17 08:06 UTC

@Ann Griffith
I'm sorry (for Asgardia) to say you're right. And, despite the government's form, it's impressive to see how it would be easy, to follow a "legal" path, so to achieve a "correct" voting. I'm still surprised about the administration didn't took these steps.
That doesn't mean there wasn't things which had to be considered, I'm meaning the ID-to-person pairing and some other "details" but, at least, the "legal path" to a correct voting would have put Asgardia on a path to achieve UN's recognition.
Asgardian's "laws" (decrees) are far from being "real laws" (I mean "laws which have to be respected into an international context") but, in relation to Asgardia itself, they are laws. Breaking these laws (it's the case of decrees n. 3 and n. 6), or avoiding to state there some "angular points" like quorum and citizenship (again into decree n. 3), is not what will help to bring Asgardia the needed recognition.
We, the "dissidents", told those things many and many times, no one, here, can say we've been silent and the administration didn't know all this. I've to say that we became "dissidents" exactly 'cause of the administration didn't listen to our warnings.
Now, mine here is only a "late explanation" of the process which brought Asgardia to this point: it now doesn't matter what/if someone will answer, to me or to explain things, as all is gone how it gone, it's in the past and can't be changed.
Very valuable persons (I'm not referring to myself) left Asgardia 'cause of that, they're gone and won't come back.