Aqu 02, 01 / Jan 2, 17 17:54 UTC
Re: Punish Corruption with Death, By Law!! ¶
prisoners will be sent to prison on the Earth
Aqu 02, 01 / Jan 2, 17 23:01 UTC
As Earth is running out of space to build houses, running out of space to farm, where would you suggest they build a prison to hold our outcasts? Or are you suggesting they somehow make room in their currently overcrowded prisons for another nations criminals? As possibly covered in previous responses, what when they are natively born in Asgardia and have had no terran home?
What would make more sense is to construct prison facilities and then outsource these to Earth.
Aqu 10, 01 / Jan 10, 17 18:28 UTC
I agree with both J.O.A and dirk. The death pentaly seems like something, I feel, that wouldn't exactly fit into the model of asgardia. With new laws and new structures to justice being set such a thing as the death pentaly brings back an old feeling of how things are. We should strive to be seen as a council or civilization that has a more just way of justice. Taking the life of an individual only makes since to me if a life was taken by the individual in question, but we must show restraint. May the will of the people be heard, but my opinion stands as following. No death pentaly, severe sentencing.
Aqu 12, 01 / Jan 12, 17 14:10 UTC
Hello, Dear Asgardians...
Honestly, I DO NOT agree with the sentence of death penalty. Perhaps, at maximum, life imprisonment,
I'm PRO-LIFE, not against it!
Aqu 26, 01 / Jan 26, 17 07:45 UTC
I honestly don't see how the death penalty would fix anything really. It should be about a fair and honest trial. It should be about doing the right thing. And if we go around and kill, then we're no better than the corrupted ourselves.
Pis 00, 01 / Jan 28, 17 16:16 UTC
The death penalty has no place in a civilised society, certainly not in what we are creating, a new society based on enlightenment not coercion and punishment.
Pis 01, 01 / Jan 29, 17 03:11 UTC
It is ironically the judgement that cause the bias in view which lead to corruption.
Corruption is the product of man made law and imperfect judgement by individual who assume the role of the judge. All higher beings are non judgemental but with infinite love to embrace all mistakes.
Judge is the mistake of kids who play the role using force and need to be ended. I am.surpise that it become the main section of the forum which will lead to the same conflict on Earth right now. Universal law rules the universe and all man made law are cult and personal opinion.
Pis 22, 01 / Feb 19, 17 06:02 UTC
This idea is a bit much and pointless as well, rather than ending the lives of any corrupt government official whether federal or state. It makes far more sense to simply remove said person from their position, revoke their citizenship, and send them back to Earth. It avoids the need for any prisons and the need for funding to care for them while they are in prison. It also avoids passing the buck to some Earth bound prison and making Asgardia look as if it can not keep it's own house in order!
The fact that so many of our citizens still follow that institutionalized way of thought scares me in regards to what Asgardia will become. Listen folks, we do not need such a harsh, ineffective, and perverse method such as the death penalty to deal with corruption or any other issue. It does not work and is solely for the pleasure of those sick individuals who thought up such a sadistic idea. Let's not taint what could be a beautiful place with the sins of individuals who can only be described as being evil
Pis 22, 01 / Feb 19, 17 06:19 UTC
Revoking citizenship and returning to Earth is something only really considerable for those who first signed up. Being born in Asgardia would open up headaches with this policy. It certainly doesn't avoid passing the buck to Earth, or make it look like Asgardia can keep it's own house in order.
Pis 22, 01 / Feb 19, 17 15:40 UTC
Hello Eyer, Actually it works in all situations, and it does help to avoid passing the buck and making Asgardia look like it is not able to keep it's own house in order. By revoking their citizenship you eliminate that person as an Asgardian responsibility and by returning them to Earth. You allow said person to continue their life in their native land. You also avoid the issue of where to house said person were you to send them to prison. Asgardia will need the capability to deal with any situation that may arise within it's borders. In order to be truly independent and by sending prisoners to Earth for punishment and incarceration. You project the idea that Asgardia can not handle housing prisoners, now of course violent prisoners should be sent to prisons elsewhere considering the environment Asgardia will someday be in. But corrupt government officials do not always fit the description of violent offenders and it would take far more money to prosecute, relocate, and house said offenders. Than it would to simply revoke their citizenship and relocate them back to their native lands and allow their government in said land to decide if sending said person to prison is necessary or not.
While space around Asgardia is vast, space inside it's walls will not be so none can or should be spared for prisons. Any Asgardian prison would have to be built on good ole terrafirma. In order to eliminate the risk having prisoners aboard a space station!
Pis 22, 01 / Feb 19, 17 17:05 UTC
That was kind of my point, Jason, those born in Asgardia would have no "Earth home" to be returned to. So quite how this is supposed to "work in all situations" still merits explainations.
As does how passing on the problem to someone else counts as not passing the buck or how revocation of citizenship absolves of responsibility.
Space is vast, indeed, you capitlise on this by building prison facilities. Then you eliminate the risk of having prisoners on a space station. They're in a prison. Attempts to build this on Earth, where space is not so abundant, is not the most sensible move considerable.
Pis 22, 01 / Feb 19, 17 20:49 UTC
Hello Eyer, First off Jason mentioned a penalty which suggests he was referring to the idea of subjecting the corrupt to the death penalty, Second, while future generations born in Asgardia may not have homes of their own on Earth. They most certainly will have relatives on Earth. With whom they maybe able to stay until they find a place of their own, Third the whole idea is NOT to bring the drama of Earth into space, Filling it with prisons does just that. Therefore the simplest way to ensure that corrupt person can no longer affect Asgardia negatively is to. Relieve him/her of their post, citizenship, and send them packing. Any solution we think of has to be inline with the philosophy Asgardia has been or will be founded on. In order for Asgardia to be different than the current nations of Earth and not repeat the same mistakes they made. By revoking their citizenship all we would be doing is freeing them to either go back to being whatever nationality they were before becoming Asgardian citizens or starting over in a new nation if they choose.
Depending on the impact their corruption had on the nation I would not even suggest wasting the funds on building a prison to house them in or the funds to care for them while they are there. The entire idea of a prison system is out dated anyway what would we be doing collecting bad guys and gals!!? Oh, and, I never said it would absolve the corrupt of their responsibility. However, I am saying that we should consider what type of corruption should be met with the type of punishment suggested. If someone is just guilty of taking bribes or kickbacks wasting the funds to build a prison to house them is simply ridiculous. But if they are responsible for loss of life either directly or indirectly then sure punish them
Pis 23, 01 / Feb 20, 17 00:57 UTC
I fail to notice Jason supporting such a stance in this thread, or any other to which he has contributed. Although it is truely beyond my mandate, I suggest the "penalty" to which he refers be that which you had suggested - exile from Asgardia and return to Earth.
Having relatives in a country isn't an obligation within itself for that country to accept someone for import, let alone someone that problematic the previous country is attempting to get rid of them. Basing future generations acceptance onto the surface of the Earth based on this would be incredibly unwise. Ofc, ultimately we all know how gravity works, and once they're down there it's a little too late - but that general trend of thinking is most alarming. It could quite possibly constitute an act of interference with the natural operations of the nations of Earth, and on those grounds alone be unacceptable. We need to limit ourselves from acting against their wishes, especially where it directly involves them.
Although the idea is to prevent the dramas from unfolding into space, and much of the cause of it should be resolved before it actually happens, but infraction is inevitable, and not everything is possible to be addressed with regards to adjustment of long term behaviours, for possibly more serious things than a personality defect. I'm not suggesting space be filled with prisons, I'd really consider our requirements to possibly not require a full long term facility - hence suggestion of outsourcing excess space to Earth. It takes care of our problem and lessens theirs. This is the responsibility of which I speak, Asgardia's for that of it's citizens. Simply returning them, or in the case of those born in space dumping them on the Earth simply shirks this.
To be able to attribute resources for the long term habitational facilities then a prison complex would be a trivial matter. Another trivial matter to solve would be that of corruption, by enacting a governmental type of direct democracy. It's difficult to bribe everyone, and should it be managed it's likely to be cost-ineffective.
Pis 23, 01 / Feb 20, 17 01:33 UTC
Hello Eyer, Most Asgardian citizens have dual citizenship so, by returning them to their native lands there would not be any problem. Their native land is not going to bar their entry nor can it without good reason. As for those people who will eventually be born in Asgardia.You could allow them to keep their citizenship but send them to the island nation I mentioned to face punishment and eliminate the need for a prison in space, the funding to build it, pay the staff working in such a dangerous environment, and the transfer of Earthly problems into space! Acting against the wishes of the nations of Earth? How would we be doing that? When have they expressed any opposition to my idea? When were they even made aware of my idea? I am thinking never unless they are keeping incredibly close tabs on this project which I doubt.
Asgardia has a responsibility to it's citizens alright and that includes them all not just certain folks. If Asgardia were not to remove someone who's corruption may pose a threat to the other citizens then, Asgardia would have failed those citizens and for what one person!!? That kind of favoritism has no place in the leading of a nation. So, you treat those who do wrong appropriately you do not baby them. You think my thought process is alarming!!? That is a hoot, coming from someone who honestly believes that every possible eventuallity can be accounted for by nothing more than good design alone!
Your thought process is so hazardous that I can assure you that it if placed into practice would get a person/people killed! It is far too idealistic and assumptious to be safe
Pis 23, 01 / Feb 20, 17 06:07 UTC
When have they expressed any opposition to my idea? When were they even made aware of my idea?
They haven't. This is precisely the sort of reason it'd be a poor idea, at least until you've checked with them. I can't see them being incredibly responsive, at least positively. The dual citizen citizens was never an issue, I don't seem to understand why you would require to focus on this, the problematic example cited repeatedly was those born in space. You'd still need to pay for a prison to be built on the Earth, and that would likely cost more than space considering how much more resources there are in space and the fact that we would require to be obtaining them to be getting residential facilities to account for our citizens to a scale to warrent prison facilities. You would still require staff etc - although I still think almost everything can be automated. It'd certainly represent an easier option for escape being on an island - that you still haven't done a feasiblity study on obtaining. Interesting to see how you reconcile the special 200 people with homes on this island with a prison - considering the island isn't likely to be big enough for 200 people really, and the supporting infrastructure they'll sensibly require. The tourist industry for functional prisons on remote islands otherwise populated by 200 elites must be booming. I don't see why more people haven't done this. And there's a difference between allowing Earthly problems traversing space, and using Earth as a dumping ground for our problems. The only commonality they share would be that it isn't right to allow.
I said nothing of babying, I said nothing failure to uphold responsibilities to other citzens by way of failure to remove that which cannot be adjusted from "disfunctional", and certainly do not advocate any form of favouritism. It should be interesting to find out how you draw these conclusions. Yes, your thought processes are definitely alarming. And certainly good design is capable of accounting for every eventually - that and you not even noticing it doing it are the hallmarks of a good design. That's basically what makes the entire premise of human existence in space - or even visiting feasible. Not shortsighted misunderstandings and irrational fears.