Hello Eyer, Of course it is, it would be absurd for an independent nation to have to use the currency of another nation/s for trading purposes. You do not see any nation that does that so why should Asgardia? What are you trying to make Asgardia into a joke? No nation would ever take Asgardia seriously if it had to rely on the currency from another nation. So, whether you want to admit it or not Asgardia needs a monetary system. It having one is another sign of the serious intent of Asgardia to be the nation it intends to be. Actually, you are wrong the principle of having something of value to exchange for something that you value applies to national trade as well and if I do not have the skills to make or something someone else wants in trade for something I want from them. Then I can not obtain the item I want, but if I had an equivalent amount of money then trading for the things I want and need becomes that much simpler. Actually you are wrong again, I do not see a viable trading system that does not rely on currency because there is none, well not one everyone can participate in anyway and because of a nasty little emotion called greed! Money has become too integrated into daily life for us to magically rid ourselves of it. My understanding of human behavior is better than you think and I have more faith in my plan to get Asgardia to where the founder intends it to be faster than yours ever could! As well as to keep it safer than your suggestions ever could.

Any division among haves and have nots already exists, so, sending two hundred people to live in our budding nation will do no harm! How would acauiring land of our own on which to establish our nation or having a monetary system deeply infect Asgardia with greed? For that matter, what makes you think that having a monetary system would make people greedy?

Greed is already present in all of us, the only difference is how we all address said issue. Some people allow it to control them and would do so whether money existed or not. Others control it and would also do so if money existed or not, besides that. If we properly educate people regarding the importance of money and not allow our citizens to be duped into believing that. Having tons of money equals a better life then we can avoid the pitfalls of greed! You have no clue as to my thought process so stop pretending as if you do. So you can avoid being embarrassed and I can avoid embarrassing you. If you truly believe that having an incentive to look forward to does not inspire people to do their job and do it well then I have a little experiment for you to try.

For a period of say three months order out two to three times a week from two different places, tip one driver but not the other, and then compare the quality of work put forth by the two delivery drivers. Actually I will save you the time and just tell you. The driver receiving the tip will be more likely to be on time and your food will be less likely to be messed with in anyway. While the other driver will be more likely to be late and possibly tamper with your food and why? Because he has no incentive to be professional in his/her duties. Delivery drivers do not make all that much and rely on tips. So, no tip equals no incentive, while a tip does equal incentive. Your ideas are not realistic in the least, in fact they are reckless if anything. You underestimate the numerous possible threats out there and overestimate your own abilities

You really need to understand what you are saying. It might help you understand how much you highlight your own futility.

We produce nothing. We have no exports. Even if we had these, payment would not be in any currency we created. Nations use other nations currencies for trading all the time, any time they want to buy anything. It happens every day, all the time. Even if we had a currency, nowhere else would accept it. There is no practical application in the near future. Trade between Asgardians will take place most likely in the locally applicable currency - much as it does currently. As this system is currently in place by pretty much every observable nation, how precisely would this make us a joke? I would suggest instead what will make people not take us seriously are those that would think up of such schemes then post them to the internet for everyone to laugh at your continual ability to fail in providing a single valid reason to create our own monetary system.

When Asgardia does have capacity for it's population, they will have more than likely been exposed to concepts like UBI for considerable time - combine this with the abundace provided from mining space and there's no real reason to continue the pretence with fictional resources, and they should readily see the sense in making the entire affiar removed of one needless complication.

You might not have the skills but machines can. They will require to be numerous and overly competent in production quality in order to feasibly consider safe construction of residential facilities in a realistic timeframe. Whatever you care for can be provided. Literally. Primitive concepts like trade are consequences of scarcity. What will be considered of value will be things you literally cannot buy - like knowlege and experiences. This is assuming complete failure of the team working on a real life replicator, and they think they'll have it nailed before then. Just based from what you'd need to setup realistical long term mass residential facilities.

Money may of been allowed to become an integral part of daily life, but it's flawed design is reaching straining points as the physical medium costs more to fabricate than it's printed value declares and going digital will at best buy a few extra decades before the same problem exists. The general economic models flaws are also vastly showing and the greed-fueled steady push towards higher profit margins is about to hit a critical saturation point in terms of automations, which combined with AI in multiple fields is going to wipe out a lot of jobs and result in UBI - or just giving people money so they have it to spend, and the companies get to sell the goods they have made and go bankrupt. How long is it before someone sane questions why not just eleminate the money. Especially once scarcity is no longer a thing.

Divisions between haves and have nots already exist. That's not a valid reason to purposefully create another. Use of an exclaimation mark does not add validity to the invalid assumption that this can or will do no harm. Some people can be quite immature on such things. I'm ignoring the hypocritical concept of attempting to enact a slogan of one humanity, one unity and then only actively considering two hundred citizens, and the message this sends. The act of having land doesn't propigate greed, within itself, money however has been categorically proven to fuel it. What people will do to themselves and or others in the persuit of it suggests it's something that should ideally be kept at the greatest possible distances. Lacking a fictional resource to covet, the futility of the acquisition of mass physical resources should soon become apparent to even the most avid hoarder. In the face of infinite resources, greed should drown itself within three to five generations. the kids growing up watching that will find something better to do - like when small children grow up watching their parents smack habit and then end up never touching it their life because they've seen what it does.

I have many clues to your thought processes. You advertise them, in subtle and not so subtle ways. I in no way suggested that there will be a generalised lack of incentives to look forwards, just that money really shouldn't be one of them. Instead it should be something that actually matters. Having known a few that have worked as a delivery driver for food, then yes they all want tips - this is commonly a facet of greed, but is mostly a feature of the requirement for money in the first place - those requiring to rely on this un-assured variable should possibly be thinking harder about getting a better job than if they'll get a tip. But the level of services you recieve is the same. It takes them however long it takes to do the other deliveries, and you are in the list where you are in the list. The larger firms will soon be ACO here if they are not already, and already several firms are looking into automated deliveries... If they'll mess with your food, they'll mess with your food. If you can tell, they probably want you to know.

Again you cite things like recklessness, lack of realism, underestimation and overestimation - what has lead you to this conclusion? I phear we should deal with this sooner rather than later. Coming from someone incapable of doing a feasibility study on an idea almost assured to stagnate future development if not outright cripple it then this should actually be thoroughly entertaining.

Both of your arguments have become futile. You're not discussing abolition or preservation of the monterary system anymore.

I'd defnitely argue my overall tone, and multiple specific examples is clearly advocating the abolition of the monetary system.

Though I'll readily admit much seems futile.

Hello Eyer, No nation on Earth uses the currency of another for trading purposes, it would not makes any sense for them to. Which is why nations allow you to exhcange the currency from another nation for theirs. It makes trading that much easier because only one currency is needed. Adding another would complicate things and we all know or should know that, the simpler the idea the more functional it is! That would be true if Asgardia did not have an economy to give value to said currency. But seeing how this is supposed to be a serious project it will have one so, the currency of the nation will have value and be accepted by other nations. Anyway, the point is Asgardia will indeed get to the point where it has the ability to export and import products and will absolutely need a monetary system in place. In order to make trading possible in the first place without monetary aid from other nations, thus preserving it's independence!

Hello Sam, I do not agree completely but, will admit that I may have gotten a bit side tracked. I mean how many different ways can you explain the same thing to some hard headed person before it all sounds like rambling?

No nation on Earth uses the currency of another for trading purposes, it would not makes any sense for them to. Which is why nations allow you to exhcange the currency from another nation for theirs. It makes trading that much easier because only one currency is needed.

That's two currencies involved, not one, and the requirement to exchange to their currency is because that's what they will accept. Their currency. After acknowleging this you still somehow seem to use it as supporting evidence that we would additionally require a currency to increase the complexity of any given transaction, after acknowleging this will reduce functionality. But how many times can you explain something to a hard headed person before it sounds like rambling?

The project being serious is not within itself a defacto requirement for currency. And neither is this a requirement for other nations to accept or place upon this currency a value. As previously mentioned mulitple times it's highly unlikely if we did have a currency that anywhere else would accept it. It would only have function somewhere that doesn't exist, and in all probability is unlikely to exist for a few decades and then when it does exist the requirements for a currency will be abesented entirely.

The ability to import/export products does not require a currency of our own, as these transactions will be more than likely taking place in the native currencies to the nation trading with.

Having a currency of our own does not within itself assure independance. Neither does it deny it, as we are free to use whatever currency makes the most sense for that transaction and never tied to the fate of a single.

Hello Eyer, I see this is necessary to do and apologize ahead of time, if Asgardia were to implement your idea and not have a monetary system. Then Asgardia would have to depend on another nation to lend them the currency it would need for international trade purposes. Which in turn would negate all the effort that was put forth to make Asgardia an independent nation to begin with and allow for whatever nation. That loaned Asgardia the money to have an influence in Asgardia and possibly Asgardian matters. By allowing them to dictate the terms under which they agree to loan the nation the money!!! After all Asgardia would need the money and that need would leave the nation powerless in such a negotiation. Therefore, Asgardia needs to have it's own currency to avoid that very scenario. So, yes the project being serious is a defacto reason for the nation to have it's own currency. Now, please stop fooling yourself and arguing against common sense. Oh, and, when the UK for example trades with the US, the UK pays the dollar equivalent in pounds for whatever goods they want. Which is then exchanged by the seller for dollars meaning only one currency was involved in the transaction and that was the pound. The dollar did nothing at all during said transaction

No it'd not depend on others lending it currency, trade would just take place in their currencies, much as it does now. There's no requirement for us to have a monetary system. Loans, specifically the consumation of debt is effective acceptence of your slavery as you sell that which you have not got yet and ensure your own effort to prevent default. It's not a sensible move for any sane thinking individual. This "requirement for money" should be met by this trade you seem to think would require our own currency to take place - despite constant examples to the contrary being available for independant verification.

Currency isn't a defacto requirement of being an "independant nation". Although if you would like to depend on a currency, being in control over it does increase independance. But without the currency to begin with it's a moot concept. Money is not power, there are plenty of people with lots of money and no power. It's lack can be restrictive, certainly, but there's loads of examples of people doing things you wouldn't think possible, without money. It's not the be all and end all of all things.

When for example the UK trades with the US, they start with £ and convert this into $ to give to the US. This is two currencies. They both keep a foreign currency reserve, but they do not continually attract it, else continual trade would simply displace their currency - there's a level that's somewhat maintained. Sometimes in the maintainence it allows to skip the conversion step but charges for it will be applied anyway. None of this represents a specific requirement for us to generate and maintain our own currency. This is something else you should do a feasibility study on. Unlike counterpart systems, when factoring the cost per denomination you should also take into account the cost to roll this out to the front line, not just getting it off the printer.

Are you really so dim? It is called TRADE, not I will give you something for nothing. Besides, a trade always takes place using the buyer's nation's currency, so unless the founder's nation. Is willing to allow him as the head of state of Asgardia. To use their currency for international trade purposes, Asgardia will need a currency of it's own. If Asgardia does not implement it's own currency, the scenario I mentioned to you will be guaranteed to happen. Because that is how certain people, the ones with the power think and seeing how Asgardia is intended to be space based. That opens up new opportunities for making money billions maybe even trillions or more of dollars and people would gladly throw others under the bus to get in on that action! Your current mindset that does not consider such obvious possibilities is why I consider you an idealist.

No, only one currency is used during the trade if the UK buys ten tons of cattle feed they pay the appopriate amount in pounds to meet the US seller's asking price. The US seller does not pay the UK a cent so, the dollar did nothing and just sat on his fat all American butt while chugging a cold one. The converting of the pounds into dollars is just a necessary step in the finalising of the transaction. It in now way means the dollar was at all active in said trade, understand now? Now, in money conversion deals where one currency is exchanged for another then two currencies are involved. Keeping Asgardia free from Earthly influence however, is a defacto reason for the nation to have it's own currency.

You should really cease and desist now, we both know you can not refute what was said regarding the scenario I used as an example and if you are at all logical then, you know I am right regarding how the people with the power think and I really want to avoid having to further spell it of for you as if you were a child. I dislike having to be that insulting if it can be avoided. Besides, the entire idea of the project is to keep the drama of Earth from reaching space, not enable it to do so by leaving a door open for it to sneak in!

Well, actually, something for nothing is going to become a defacto reality by way of UBI-esque schemes that are almost assuredly to be cropping up globlly once the countries running trial runs expand the selection and others follow suit. You still don't seem to get this concept, or the fact that by the time we are able to realstically account for the population this would of been in place for a few decades and be quite normal. It'd be abnormal for Asgardia not to do it. Sensibly this can only be considered an interim step in the elimination of the monetary system as it allows the hard of thinking folks like yourself the long time it will take you to grasp the futility of having a monetary system.

At some point it may indeed involve the buyers native currency, but the seller is commonly only interested in accepting their own native currency. As you appear to require simple, lets use a nice casual example first. I want to buy some random tat you're eager to sell. You want $5. You wouldn't be happy with me posting you £5, it's useless to you. The fact it's "worth more" is quite moot, as I'm confident you'd rather have the $ - you can take that into any local store and spend it. Fluid. As far as you are concerned, turning that into dollars is likely my responsibility - and cost - or you'll just wait until someone does give you $5 for it. I do not feel this is an uncommon senario. This is how trade between us would happen now, and realistically why we should need no currency of our own.

Same story, one different variable. You want to sell your random tat for $5, I want to buy it with 5 Astardollars. I'd wager you would be less eager to acccept these than the stirling pound. Of that notion in order to get me your random tat I'm going to have to find a way to transform my Astardollars into "real money" - and here is where the problems will begin. What reason would anyone anywhere have to accept this? Instantlly I'm at a disability. To be achievable many transactions will require more than two currencies, changing to something that will accept ours and then into the target. However, should we have no currency of our own then everything stays exactly how it is now - which is hardly optimum but semi-functional. The attribution of our own currency shall deliver no features to aid functionality - by virtue of adding needless complexity it will reduce it - and as we migrate from Earth such disabilities will of been cured.

Besides, the entire idea of the project is to keep the drama of Earth from reaching space, not enable it to do so by leaving a door open for it to sneak in!

What door? like money! And it's proven assistence to corruptability! And all the other associated problems it fuels and fosters! If you was looking at this logically at all you'd realise several of your points intrinsically support my postulation it is a monetary system within itself is a worthless persuit! I do not recall you detailing a senario that was within its defacto proof that would survive peer review that a currency of our own in an express requirement! And yes, you really should cease and decist about now, that is smoking crack. Then you might have time to perform a feasibility study or two.

Silly grasshopper, You should really take the time to verify you beliefs before assuming that they are correct. Universal basic income schemes as you call them, which makes them sound bad actually. Are not in practice and because they aren't they are irrelevant to the discussion. Furthermore, in order for said ideas to work, you still need a form of currency. Something the citizens of your nation can pay their expenses with expenses like taxes for example. For Asgardia or any nation to eliminate money. Not only do their citizens have to be ready to make that leap but, the nation itself has to find an alternative way of paying the expenses needed to maintain and build new infrastructure as well as engage in international trade!

Basically, we would need to create an entirely new system that does not rely on money as the catalyst for trade. Which, just can not be done at this time, each nation on and off world. Would need to have something to offer that the other nations can not get on their own through any channel but trade and Asgardia currently has nothing to offer and will not have anything to offer for quite some time after the nation's creation.

Me hard of thinking 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 good one! You are the one pitching an idea that requires the reworking of the trade industry to no longer rely on money. As feasible without having reworked the trade industry to not rely on money and say I am hard of thinking!!! Anyone supposedly capable of what you claim to be capable of. Would surely have seen that as obvious as it is, I mean, my teenage nephew would have seen that!

The fact that you do not see something so obvious leads me to believe that you are either up to something or stand to benefit from the ideas you have been pitching. At least one of which simply is not currently possible and another that relies on an ability not yet possessed by a nation that does not yet exist! I prefer simple, I do not require it, the simpler something is the better. All good plans after all are the simple ones. What problems? If Asgardia had a physical currency with a value attached to it. It will be accepted because as has been pointed out repeatedly. It can be exchanged for another currency of value making the transaction worthwhile and if Asgardia started out on an island. We would then be able to build the beginnings of an economy, which would give any physical currency a value. The problem you keep mentioning only comes into play when, you have a physical currency with no value attached and try to make use of it.

There you go with your habit of over complicating things to try and make them seem less appealing than your idea. Only one currency plays a role in trade transactions. The target currency does nothing because the target currency is that of the seller and he/she is selling something other than currency. So, if I sell you a tattoo for five bills and you pay me in whatever currency Asgardia will have. As long as their is a value attached to the money that meets my asking price I will accept it. I could always exchange it for my preferred currency or not and use that five astardollars during a visit to Asgardia, assuming of course that I live to see the nation's creation.

The one that would allow whatever nation that loans Asgardia the funds to engage in trade to. Dictate the terms under which they agree to loan the nation the money in the first place. Asgardia can not engage in trade without the funds to pay for it's purchases and no seller is going to accept a trade in which they receive nothing in return. Which is the idea you keep proposing by suggesting that Asgardia could simply use the target nation's currency to make the purchase. If the asking price is in dollars for example, Asgardia would have to borrow the required amount from the US. Considering Asgardia would not have a currency of it's own were your idea implemented. Meaning if Asgardia were loaned the funds, the US could implement conditions that would have to be met before they loaned Asgardia the money and that Asgardia would simply be using money the nation received for free to pay for the trade. Meaning US tax payers would have paid for said trade and the seller would just be getting some of his/her money back!

As for corruption, money has nothing to do with whether a person is corrupted or not. Those who blame money for their becoming corrupted are only using it as a scapegoat. So they can avoid the shame of not having been able to resist allowing themselves to be corrupted and the responsibility of their actions while corrupted. Basically, they are protecting their egos that will not allow them to believe that they did anything wrong. Save all your passive aggressive keyboard warrior bs ya dig? Insulting me does not change the fact that your idea is not possible nor does it make you right. It just makes you look like you have no class!

What isn't correct?

Yes, refering to it as a "scheme" possibly gives it a negative bent, but doesn't impact it's actuality. They are in practise, with several countries running "trial periods" with "select groups" before it's more universally adopted across that country. It's highly relevant to the conversation, as it represents a more than probable direction of travel with regards to the monetary system itself and realistically allows for practical demonstration of it's futiility which is further likely to result in it's eventual demise due to the demonstration of this futility. There are no expenses in the maintainence of a monetaryless system, becuase you have no money to spend money on maintaining. Thusly you don't need to charge people money for owning money. There's no requirement for taxes. Building new infrastructure is simply done in the same way as existing. click. Same with 99.9% of the maintainence.

There already exists a system that doesn't rely on money as the catalyst for trade, and with multiple concepts of space, trade should be a generally redundant operation. To exist sensibly in space, then the Earth is going to hold nothing we want, and a continually growing pile of useless Earth currency isn't of any use unless there's intent to force them away from money too by simply breaking their economies.

Would your teenage nephew of also spotted the lack of observable coherence to any particular sentence also appearing in the paragraph?

The fact that you honestly believe there would no expenses involved is exactly why I am beginning to believe that you are a con. Who said the expenses would be solely linked to maintaining a moneyless system? The expenses I have mentioned refers to the maintaining of the nation's infrastructure and not having access to the vast wealth of resources available in space. Seeing how initially Asgardia will not have said access and that even when it does. The resources it uses for expansion of infrastructure would surpass those being collected for quite some time. Considering there will be things we can not create in Asgardia, Earth will always be needed for something. For example, say you want a pet like a cat. Well, due to the fact that they shed unless it is a hairless species, having cats onboard would not be a good idea. Leaving the Earth the only way of obtaining said animal. Or maybe I may want a sketchpad for drawing as that is a hobby of mine. Sketchpads require paper, which in turns require trees to make, can some Asgardian company provide me with a sketchpad when Asgardia would not be able to support the kind of supply of trees necessary to make paper for as long as sketchpads require it? No, because they pose a threat consider they release oxygen an essential fuel for fire! Or perhaps there would be citizens who love to ski, surf, or do any activity the requires a specific environment. What, are they supposed to settle for virtual environments that lack the actual elements those people love like the snow, water, or natural beauty?

You seem to have no idea why money can not currently be erased from a society, that or you are in extreme denial. Money can not be erased from human society because humans have not reached such a level of enlightenment that would eliminate a need for money. So many people have been duped into thinking that having a lot of money equals having a good life that, they would not willingly give up the concept of money. Even though their mistaken belief is what is used to control them in the first place

If there's no expenses involved, what are you being conned out of, precisely?

Actually, the maintainence of infractructure is provided by the vast resources of space. The raw material in abundance providing for parts in abundance providing for components in abundance. That which cannot be automated is possibly able to be covered as part of training and building skills in various fields - HVAC engineers need HVAC systems to play with - and initally Asgardia will have access to these, as yet again, you're not lifting a few hundred megatonne from the floor. Consider, to actually get this viably operable, we will need to be able to produce everything Earth can, and because we can't be doing with lifting things every fifteen mins this productive capacity can continue after construction. Collection should be exponetntial in expansion, and should rapidly outperform ability to consume - especially once we start mining the Oort. Earth might be the only place to obtain, say a cat, to begin with but once they start breeding it'll be common at other locations. Paper can be made from things other than trees. By deploying various farms you can not only take care of dietry requirements, but grow things to be turned into products like paper, cotton etc.

Fire from oxygen release from trees isn't a particularly great concern. Again, more irrelevant and irrational fears. Oxygen is a required compenent for fire, but it's in the air at about 21% saturation naturally, and maintained therabouts by the environmental support systems when dealing with space.

Things like ski, snow, water etc are providable. Possibly not as a feature inside the main residential facilities - but if we can currently build a ski resort in the desert, we can definitely build one in space. Not having a monetary system would make that really easy to do.

I seem to have every idea of precisely why money should be eliminated from society. Lacking money doesn't require "enlightenment" - people are born without it, it's something they learn, a defect imprinted upon by society. The fools that think money equates happiness will soon learn otherwise once there is visual example that money is entirely worthless.

Hello grasshopper, You are either a con or incredibly deluded, I mean, you keep speaking as if we already have access to the resources in space, which I constantly have to remind you that we do not. Which means we can not currently rely on them for anything so, their being vast in supply is until we have access to them totally irrelevant and you support an idea that relies on those same resources we can not currently access! You should easily be able to see why I am under the impression that you are just a con. Me? Nothing but I am not the eccentric billionaire financing the project so why would you target me? Where else would the lifting be done from? Is there a secret cost free way of reaching space I do not know about? Last I checked we had to launch rockets loaded with the materials we wanted to send to space to space! Maybe they would not have to be enlightened but they certainly would all have to be in agreement with your proposal and they all most certainly will not be. Furthermore, trying to take something away from someone not ready to give said thing up, is just asking for trouble, most people simply are not ready to give up the concept of money thanks to the brain washing they were victim to. That causes them to think that having lots of it equals having a good life and they will fight to keep the concept of money should it come down to it!

Building anything in space will not be cheap using currently available methods, so stop kidding yourself and trying to blow smoke up my rear end. I do not care how vast the supply of resources in space maybe. We do not have access to them I repeat do not have access to them. So, we can not use them for anything and because of that their existence is totally irrelevent! All you have is the arrogance to believe that a plan that is premature for it's time, that is based around an ability we currently do not possess, could possibly ever work. Any expert in the field of economics will tell you that. Until people are ready to give up a monetary system and you actually have access to the resources your plan requires to even be viable your plan will not work! It is missing the two most important pieces it needs in order to function. Even a child could see the glaring flaws in your plan, why can't you?