Mar 15, 17 / Ari 18, 01 14:05 UTC

Listing possible waste products for Asgardia  

Ok, I have no training as an engineer but I am pretty well learned, and my Google-fu is strong. Thus, I am asking more learned folks to check me on some things.

I am trying to list all the reasonable waste products Asgardia should produce, and therefore things that will need to be handled or processed to maintain a self-sustaining habitat. This process presumes we are recycling organic solid waste as fertilizer or food for insects, and water waste as best as we can. This is the list I have thus far:

  1. Unusable water waste (wastewater that simply cannot be cleaned and purified for use in any meaningful manner.
  2. Unusable solid waste (inorganics that cannot be recycled, for example)
  3. Temperature (props to EyeR for bringing this up, as I had not considered it)

With regards to temperature, I need to ask whether a more terrarium-type environment would alleviate the necessity of processing waste heat or not? I am uncertain, and little research seems to have been done on the subject.

What other waste products can people imagine we might produce on Asgardia that we would need to deal with?

Mar 15, 17 / Ari 18, 01 14:43 UTC

storage containers, cartons, plastics, hopefully none of those styrofoam peanuts.

Mar 15, 17 / Ari 18, 01 15:10 UTC

First off, what Zahira said, "none of those Styrofoam peanuts"...I hate those little B**s...Let's see, what else....

Clothing

Broken equipment/parts/pieces

There's a couple more off the top of my head.

Mar 15, 17 / Ari 18, 01 16:45 UTC

Styrofoam is already replacable by fungus(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmDENxTPn8Q) - and can be returned to our farming industries as input. Much packaging may be possible to replaced by similar.

Clothing is already somewhat recyclable and if natural materials, biodegradable. Broken peices to equipment are also likely recyclable - it's just how much effort it takes.

Water should be pretty much almost entirely re-harvestable. Between centrafuges, filters, and evapourators and freezers(different materials exhibit differing melting/boiling/freezing points, and can assist seperations) and catalysts 99.9% or thereabouts should be recoverable.

Of more concern, personally, was the byproducts of the various manufacturing industries. Located orbitally they are naturally suitably contained but they will require dealing with. Some things may be reacted against others to provide for something useful, but I still sense a lot bound for Sol, which is the easiest way to deal with anything that would otherwise pile up with no practical purpose in sight. Centrafrugal launchers could make it quite "cheap" to regluarly throw waste matter into the nearest star for inceneration. Being a large ball of nuclear plasma the "waste" should incinerate a long time before it actually gets there somewhat permenantly solving the problem, whilst causing little other problems in the process.

The problem with thermal dissipation in space is commonly the only method afforded is via radiation - the infra-red variety typically. Unfortuntely, this is possibly the least effective method of transferring heat. I personally can't see - from a mechanical aspect - what would seperate a "terrarium" and a station. They're both(for purpose of argument) sealed containers, bleeding via IR. It's likely the combination of organic thermal output, the thermal output of the equipement keeping them entertained and the equipements keeping them alive combined will eventually lead to not bleeding fast enough and require something like radiator panelling to provide more surface area to dissipate through. However, if this was placed on or in the surface of an asteroid or a celestial body it would potentially allow for "geothermal" conduction - and conduction is a much better method than radiation(ofc, the object you're conducting through will essentially become a radiator and if it doesn't bleed fast enough you'll end up using it to cook you).

IMHO one of the largest problems to solve is thermal dissipation. Scaling existing systems results in a lot more potential for things to go wrong - each panel in the array requires valves in case the panel is physically damaged to prevent hemorrhaging coolant, as well as many, many more pumps required to maintain pressure/flow. I'm to understand each curve in the system reduces flow/pressure as does distance and I suspect there to be a lot of corners and distance involved pushing fluid through a 286 square mile+ radiator array. I suspect Tesla's "valvular conduit" should be suitable for assuring unidirectional flow, regardless of gravity which should be one good thing in the stack.

Clearly what is required is either a all-round better method of thermal dissipation (unlikley) or severe improvements on existing methods. The likes of stirling engines to convert heat»electricity will generate heat themselves in the process (basic thermodynamics) and still require to bleed heat themselves for the "compression cycle" to operate. The seerback effect may be able to be employed to dissipate some energy, but it's likely to be too low on the scale of output to significantly consume the input. The same with things like metamaterial panelling that uses themal energy to excite into the visible light spectrum. Even combined, I cannot see a sensible way to use that energy (dissipating is such a waste).

  Updated  on Mar 15, 17 / Ari 18, 01 16:48 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: Additional data

Mar 15, 17 / Ari 18, 01 16:46 UTC

All the things you mention thus far are recyclable using today's technologies.

I am referring to things that cannot be recycled.

EDIT: And EyeR ninja posts me.....

  Updated  on Mar 15, 17 / Ari 18, 01 16:47 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Mar 15, 17 / Ari 18, 01 16:52 UTC

@ EyeR

There is no need to shoot things as far away as the sun. Waste materials broken up into small enough pieces can be jettisoned in the direction of Earth to burn up in the atmosphere.

Which, if you think about it, might be a way of relieving at least part of the thermal burden as well. Take whatever waste products we have, transfer the heat into the waste matter before ejecting it out into space (in a manner similar to an air conditioner moves heat out of a home), then let it burn up in re-entry (it will already be really hot, after all). It won't dissipate all of the heat, but some of it, especially anything partially liquid.

Mar 15, 17 / Ari 18, 01 19:00 UTC

Burning up in the atmosphere burns the atmosphere, too. Bad thing. Especially accumalitive

Sure, it's only a little bit, but a little bit here and a little bit there and it begins to add up. How much tonnage you think we'd be burning up in the atmosphere, a week? how many weeks you predict for operation? I've been running under the assumption of "indefinitely". The effect of everything we do - especially long term - needs considering. Huffing it at Sol might take a little more effort - but this can be provided electronically (mostly, if not entirely) and potentially powered by Sol itself.

It's certainly possible to bleed some thermal excess into waste - I'm unaware of how to take 0.2°C from over 100 meter cubed and "compress" this into 200°C over one meter cubed. Questionable as to how to bleed "enough" to be noticable as ambient seems to be maximum temp, or if we'd be disposing fast enough to be of use. Liquid just means typically it'll hold it's temperature for longer than most solids(most being classified as an insulator more than a conductor). The ability to absorb temperature seems uniform(tho some things do so faster than others, for a given input they tend to hit the same temperature eventually) some release it faster than others. If this is "filled" with heat then ejected, how long it takes to cool is of no particular concern. I did somewhat toy with the idea of "radiator barges" loaded with coolant they can go on a nice long trip to cool down, and when they return exchange cold for warm coolant and repeat. Would require a lot more coolant, and would drastically increase complexity and points of failure potential as drawbacks. But it does mean that the 200+ square miles of radiator don't all need to be in the same place.

  Updated  on Mar 16, 17 / Ari 19, 01 03:36 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: typo

Mar 27, 17 / Tau 02, 01 12:34 UTC

Lots of stone probably, as the main source of income would be asteroid mining, and not everything in an asteroid is valuable material (like iron or water).

Actually, they could make the stone into jewelry for tourists as it would be like a little memento saying "hey, I've been to space and i got a space rock!" Also I guess they could be sold for research purposes.

Mar 28, 17 / Tau 03, 01 10:07 UTC

That "stone" can be mostly used as well. Everything has some purpose. The "excess" that builds up from mining isn't "waste" as much as "things we haven't used yet".

Ofc, this will require management if exponential mining methods are deployed.