Nov 26, 02 / Nov 30, 18 07:09 UTC

Re:Citizenship fee  

As I can see, plenty of people want to have profits from Asgardia, but do not want not do something useful, not to pay fees... Cool thinking guys, cool thinking.

More over, you still can be resident of Asgardia without pay anything. Fee is needed only for full citizenship and full privileges. It is normal.

Dec 2, 02 / Dec 4, 18 05:47 UTC

Dirk, then make it based on voluntary donations. Those people are providing voluntary services, so then allow people to provide voluntary donations as well. 

Asgardia is trying to attain legitimacy, this does not work towards that goal. There are already plenty of people who are skeptical about Asgardia, especially because many feel like they're not listened to, and even feel actively alienated. For example, as mentioned before, the poor cannot be a citizen of Asgardia.

Misty Writes, Those are all one off payments, in not a single country in the world that I am aware of, do you have to pay a flat yearly fee to retain your citizenship. Sure, there's administrative costs to ACQUIRE citizenship, or to be recognised a resident or such, but there is no flat fee. If you're going to argue tax, if you earn no money and spend no money, you don't pay tax. The thing about Asgardia though, is that the payment is NOT voluntary. it's either pay, or you're no longer a citizen.

Archamon, there's no such thing as a (permanent) "resident of Asgardia", let me quote you Citizenship Act, 2018 (0002) Section 6; Citizens and NonCitizens Status.

"There are four types of citizenship status in Asgardia, each with different rights and obligations.

a. A candidate citizen-resident is a potential citizen who has already applied for citizenship and is pending a final decision by the appropriate authority;

b. A citizen is a natural individual under the provisions of the Constitution and the present Act;

c. A suspended citizen is a citizen whose rights as a citizen have been suspended due to nonpayment of citizenship feesfees[sic], or due to other reasons;

d. Any other inhabitant of Earth who is neither a citizen nor a candidate."


So, "a." is the closest to what you describe, a "Candidate citizen-resident", but their application will be rejected if they do not pay the fee.

"c." is then the next closest, and I will direct you to Section 10, subsection 3 "Non-payment ot[sic] the annual citizenship tee[sic] leads to temporary suspension ot[sic] citizenship until such time the payment ot[sic] the annual citizenship tee[sic] is paid. It[sic] non-payment of citizenship fee accrues for more than a year, then citizenship would be revoked."

So, basically, if you don't pay the fee, you're not part of Asgardia in any way.

Dec 2, 02 / Dec 4, 18 16:05 UTC

@Kamica

Thank you for your thoughts and clarification. I wasn't arguing tax. I was stating there are costs to establish residency.

In the US, if you lose your dwelling or your documents, you have to pay to replace them. If you live in your vehicle, for example, (as some people do), in the state I live in, you do have to pay every single year to have the privilege (I used the word privilege on purpose. Under the republic, it's a right,) of driving on the road ways. We pay in the form of vehicle registration.

You are correct though, I have not heard of any country making me pay yearly to keep my citizenship, itself.


We have to pay in various increments to keep the recognition of that citizenship in alternate layers of fees however.


In the US, driver's licenses are issued every 5, 10, or 30 years depending on the State you live in. You have to pay to have them renewed. Vehicle registration is also done yearly, or you can't legally drive it on the public roads. Passport fees are renewed every 10 years, unless, of course, you lose it before then. 

And you're right. These are things that recognize the citizenship itself, credentials of the same.

For me, paying something yearly (or every few years) to maintain that recognition in the form of a credential, is not foreign.

I think that is the difference.

By birth, I'm recognized as a citizen of the United States of America. Nobody can make me pay for that right of citizenship in order to keep it. But having it recognized? Yep, that costs money through the various renewals I described above. 

Asgardia is stating that you can be a resident, but not a citizen, unless you pay the fee each year, thus stating you must pay for the citizenship each year.


The only other countries I can think of that behave in a similar manner are:

* Saint Lucia

* Antigua & Barbuda

* Dominica

* St. Kitts & Nevis

* Grenada

* Comoros

* Vanuatu

* Malta

* Cyprus

* Bulgaria

* Austria


Each of these countries offer something called "Citizenship by Investment". That means you have an option of investing in the country in some manner (in a flat fee, a yearly contribution, or starting a business, or purchasing large sums of real estate, etc...) in order to obtain and keep your citizenship if you were not born there. Each of their programs differs. I don't know a lot about them individually though.

I do know if you no longer meet those requirements (whatever they are for each country) then you lose the citizenship status.

So, although Agardia's approach is different than what I'm used to, I see as paying for citizenship status each year as something similar to gaining citizenship by investment. If it includes the ID card (which current verbiage states it will), then I'm also getting the recognition through a credential for the same.

I do agree with you that the verbiage in what you're describing needs to be clarified and the language consistent throughout the website.

I do documentation for a living, so I'm a stickler for eradicating known contradictions, especially, in these types of documents. To say it's important to rectify is an understatement.

I wish I had 30 to 40 hours a week to fix these discrepancies. I can also tell you from experience, that spiffing up the documentation and staying on top of it, is one of the lower priorities in many of the companies I've worked with.

Dec 3, 02 / Dec 5, 18 13:34 UTC

My main argument on this point though, is that it's unfair on the poor. I can acknowledge documents of proof of citizenship costing money, because there are administrative costs involved etc. (Though even this, ideally, would not be a thing if one would want to avoid discriminating on basis of financial status). I understand there are definitely people who are willing to pay, and good on them. I'm just worried about all the people who can't (Incidentally, I'm included in those people, even though I've got the luck of having signed up in the first 100 000, so won't need to pay yet)

It's an inelegant and brute-forced solution in my opinion, and I reckon it hurts the legitimacy of Asgardia. Especially considering that we don't actually know where this money goes. Sure, a good chunk of it goes to administrative costs, but there are currently over 200 000 citizens. If even half of those pay the yearly fee, that's 10 000 000 Euro a year. Sure, that might not be a lot for a nation, but that's still a lot of money to be non-transparently handled, and more than just the administrative costs of Asgardia I imagine. 

In these early stages, I reckon Asgardia would be better off depending on charity from its citizens, not a mandatory fee. And even in the later stages, when Asgardia actually has an economy, it should not be a flat fee, but a tax.

Because with this flat fee, it excludes the poor, which is a terrible way to start a supposed egalitarian nation.

Dec 3, 02 / Dec 5, 18 15:08 UTC

@Kamica

Your points are valid and I understand what you're staying. My excitement in my previous posts glossed over the problems you (and others have rightfully pointed out). I appreciate the clarification.

Dec 3, 02 / Dec 5, 18 20:46 UTC

What is the Citizenship Fee actually going to be used for? 


I am one of the first 100,000 citizens to join, so according to them, i do not have to pay for 2019. But as others have said, some people wont be able to afford this fee. 

Will they be kicked out or will they be considered second class citizens? 

How about using the sponsorship/donations for allowing citizens to be well citizens. How about providing people here (citizens and non-citizens alike) with some paid jobs? 

How about getting the Crypto-Currency up and running so that people (the great citizens of Asgardia) can invest in those Crypto-coins in order to purchase Asgardia merchandise or education or something. 

I can understand Asgardia implementing a passport fee or drivers license fee as most if not all earthly governments do that. I can't see banking fees or citizenship fees. Why not just say Asgardia Tax at 100 Euro and not call it a fee. 

Dec 3, 02 / Dec 5, 18 23:02 UTC

Just changing the name from a fee to a tax literally does nothing to improve it though =P. And kinda makes it less clear what it is.

The underlying concept has to be changed. A flat yearly cost is simply not the right thing to do here.

Edit: Although having said that, you do touch on some points, Asgardia needs to get some money circulation going. By that I don't mean "Citizens, pay us, the government, money!" I mean, money needs to cycle around and start doing some work. If people can make money through Asgardian channels, then Asgardia can tax that money.

There are over 200 000 citizens in Asgardia. All of those people will have different skills and fields of knowledge. Allow these people to interact with eachother, sell things to eachother, provide services for eachother etc. etc. etc. Build a platform that allows people to create a small Asgardian economy. This way, you actually get a sustainable income, and not one that squeezes your citizens dry. Also, getting an actual working economy up and running should help towards Asgardia's goal of legitimacy.

  Last edited by:  Kamica (Asgardian)  on Dec 3, 02 / Dec 5, 18 23:20 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Had more to add.

Dec 4, 02 / Dec 6, 18 10:24 UTC

Initially the fee was supposed to be in solar, which would have been fair given everyone would have had some chance at acquiring the local currency (through some work maybe ?), but new "laws" are wrote pretty much every month sometimes, like in this case, overwriting what had been declared before...

It's really hard to put faith in a government that changes and violate its own rules that much. It is also pretty bad for image and credibility. 

On top of that we have a forum that almost nobody uses except spam bots, the few asgardians here get ignored most of the time, even for legitimate questions...

I do understand the need for funding, but this is done wrong in so many levels and for so many reasons. Asking people to pay without anything in return and without even disclosing how it will be used is insane.


I seriously doubt lots of people would be inclined to pay right now. Beeing an asgardian citizen gives you nothing ! They may as well stay simple resident. But by all means, if I'm wrong, I'd be glad to be told by any paying citizen or golden 100 000 that they have amazing benefits from citizenship the others don't.

Dec 4, 02 / Dec 6, 18 12:06 UTC

Where do people get the idea that there's such a thing as "Simple residents"? If you don't pay the fee, you lose your citizen rights, and if you don't pay then within, I believe it's a year, your citizenship is completely revoked. There's nothing in the Citizen act or anywhere that describes there is such a thing as "residents" 

Dec 4, 02 / Dec 6, 18 12:52 UTC

Indeed, but there is on the website home page, and you can be sure those are not and will not be the "citizens", for if they did change their "residents" counter to only reflect paying citizen it would drop very very fast.

So yeah I agree with you there is no "resident". Hell none of the residents even reside in Asgardia... There's just those 280k people who have "accepted" the constitution (the same that doesn't seem to hold much value lately), who themselves have really no more benefits than the "followers" so far. As I see it, "citizen" is just "above" those two. You still get nothing, but you paid 100 euros.

Dec 4, 02 / Dec 6, 18 23:38 UTC

So I'm pretty sure all the residents, according to the Citizens Act, are people who are in the process of getting Citizenship, as that seems to be the only thing that Residency means. I'm curious to see if we'll see a population drop of, say, 181 652 people :P.

But yea, currently the only benefits us "Candidate Citizen-Residents" have, is that we can vote and run for office.

Dec 5, 02 / Dec 7, 18 12:16 UTC

There are no real benefits to full citizenship yet so I don't think there's any reason to panic. When Asgardia is able to reward citizenship, the fee will be more meaningful. I would propose a phasing out of the citizenship fee in any case, when Asgardia develops a working economy.

Dec 13, 02 / Dec 15, 18 21:28 UTC

This Fee is totally stupid. it is a PAY TO PLAY idea. If you want to raise funds then sell hats, flags and other items that promote Asgardia. You will have more sales from just the people who are members of Asgardia. Plus non members will ask where "ya got that cool hat" which could increase citizenship. 280K members @ $20.00 a hat is a lot of Bucks.

Jan 1, 03 / Jan 1, 19 20:06 UTC

Richard. That idea has been studied for a long time in many different forms.

A hat that costs the end user $20, does not translate to the same amount into Asgardia finances.

You have to figure in production and distribution costs, and that leaves very little to Asgardia in the end, making this not a viable option to fund building a nation.

 Citizenship Fee as currently set up, 100% goes into funding Asgardia and no overhead costs.

Jan 5, 03 / Jan 5, 19 15:34 UTC

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