Mar 31, 17 / Tau 06, 01 18:59 UTC

Re: Civilian conceal carry of weapons  


I have stated we need to be strict on who can carry non lethal weapons because of major reasons. Yes people people are entitled to their own opinions but when the safety of people would be put as risk because people think no one will see us as a threat, then it's a issue. Your right we should do all 4 of your options but we need a strict test on who carries a gun, non lethal or not, I'm highly against lethal. Hell why not let citizens carry tasers, easy deploy batons, or something! Scarab, Brandon is right guns didn't disappear from your country and not every illegal gun is owned by a criminal either. Proven some Australians own illegal guns for protection. Not many but enough. Litteraly does it really have to be guns? As much as a long range defense works, maybe let us have blunt weaponry, I would like a non lethal gun, but if every one is going to be a cry baby claiming everyone who wants one is barbaric and dangerous. Then we will still debate on batons, tasers, and more. Litteraly tell me elwe, scarab, and aleo (sorry if spelt you name wrong) but we will not be safe, so what will we do to defend ourselves?

Mar 31, 17 / Tau 06, 01 21:17 UTC

Brandon7, Seems To Me That You are a little bit too passionate about this matter:

"most of you have your heads so high in the clouds that you can not even see that"

What you're implying is quite offensive, we're not dumb people living in a bubble, I have to remind you that we're just expressing opinions so far, not facts.

But let's see, ideas proved to be bad ones? Then I think you have the wrong idea, in every survey the United States are among less developed countries when it comes to death by guns, let's take a look (Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year):

Country - Total - Method of calculation - Homicides - Suicides - Unintentional - Undetermined - Sources and Notes - Guns per Hab - Montenegro - 8.91 - (incomplete) - 2.42 (2011) - 6.49 (2009) - unavailable - unavailable - Guns in Montenegro - 23.1 - United States - 10.54 - (2014) -3.43 (2014) - 6.69 (2014) - 0.18 (2014) - 0.08 (2014) - Guns in United States - 112.6 - Uruguay - 11.52 - (mixed years) - 4.78 (2013) - 4.68 (2009) - 2.00 (2009) -0.06 (2009) - Guns in Uruguay - 31.8

More guns = more deaths. I repeat, that's not what Asgardia should aim to be, by definition an advanced society is not barbaric, weapons are barbaric, therefore advanced society ≠ armed citizens.

The whole project of Asgardia requires a certain amount of faith in humanity, if someone lacks this kind of fate, then my opinion is that this person isn't suitable for the project, we can't let fear shape the society of the future:

"Asgardia's philosophical envelope is to ‘digitalise’ the Noosphere, creating a mirror of humanity in space but without Earthly division into states, religions and nations. In Asgardia we are all just Earthlings!". Concept of Asgardia.

I can't see that happening constantly doubting each other, Phicksur summarized that very well, and we basically said the same thing, on a space station weapons would be hard to be smuggled with a proper security check, unlike on earth, and improvised weapons aren't as effective. Boonejohn97, Elwe Thor gave good options on the matter, actually reasonable ones, and I think an evolved society won't need to go any further to ensure its safety.

The Old West crime rates low?

"Homicide Rates in the American West by Randolph Roth

Was the “Old West” violent? Scholars have established that it was not as violent as most movies and novels would suggest. Murder was not a daily, weekly, or even monthly occurrence in most small towns or farming, ranching, or mining communities. Still, homicide rates in the West were extraordinarily high by today’s standards and by the standards of the rest of the United States and the Western world in the nineteenth century, except for parts of the American South during the Civil War and Reconstruction."

To appreciate how violent the West was, we need to consider not only the annual homicide rate, but the risk of being murdered over time. For instance, the adult residents of Dodge City faced a homicide rate of at least 165 per 100,000 adults per year, meaning that 0.165 percent of the population was murdered each year—between a fifth and a tenth of a percent. That may sound small, but it is large to a criminologist or epidemiologist, because it means that an adult who lived in Dodge City from 1876 to 1885 faced at least a 1 in 61 chance of being murdered—1.65 percent of the population was murdered in those 10 years. An adult who lived in San Francisco, 1850-1865, faced at least a 1 in 203 chance of being murdered, and in the eight other counties in California that have been studied to date, at least a 1 in 72 chance. Even in Oregon, 1850-1865, which had the lowest minimum rate yet discovered in the American West (30 per 100,000 adults per year), an adult faced at least a 1 in 208 chance of being murdered"

It doesn't look like heaven to me and to those who analized the numbers. I say it again, if we are not ready to leave all of our fears behind, and we are not ready to trust a new society and the people living in it, then Asgardia is not meant to be.

In conclusion, just a little reminder, we are debating over hypothesis, Asgardia is far from being built and we don't even know if it's up to us to decide about this matter.

Mar 31, 17 / Tau 06, 01 21:40 UTC

Okay honestly those of us who have evolved, but understand that we may change but not everyone else has or will. Honestly I do think no weapons wouldnt be a good future for us but in this time period I don't think no weapons is much of a option. Honestly what if a terrorist is allowed up and we werent aware? And the only way to stop them from running into a area when everyone sees him coming but are froze or no where to run. Throwing something won't stop him, a gun with a decent laugh will. Trust me it will happen, they are accepting people from countries know for terrorism, middle East and cartel from Mexico, China, and Italy which is in a region being accepted. So tell me so you know who's coming to attack or live? I cant, neither can you. Now tell me what kind of defense will we have then?

  Last edited by:  Boone Johnson (Asgardian)  on Mar 31, 17 / Tau 06, 01 21:41 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Mar 31, 17 / Tau 06, 01 21:53 UTC


Of course I am passionate about the project, it pains me to see what we are doing to each other here on Earth and it pains me to see folks, who have a chance to learn from the mistakes we have made and create something that could lead humanity into a new age, putting forth half the effort necessary to make Asgardia a reality. Judging by the posts people have made and the lack of posts that address a vital issue of why things are so messed up and how that can be avoided in Asgardia. I get the distinct impression that people think this will be easy and no real effort needs to be made. I do not claim to be a psychic or psychology expert but, I can clearly see how things will play out if people keep operating under the impression that, all they need to do is enact some pretty ideals and everything will work out and the path leads to failure.

No one implied you all are not intelligent, how did you even come to that conclusion after reading those words? What was implied is, everyone is so excited about having the chance to create something better than the garbage that exists now. That they have forgotten that the people who will make up the society has to embody and practice the ideals. Everyone thinks will make Asgardia great for the project to succeed. Actually more guns do not equal more deaths, people die from other causes too! People die in fires, from attacks by bladed weaponry, strangling, drowning, medical causes, drug overdoses, medical malpractice, accidents, and so many other causes they can not be listed. You are using an argument that has already been proven to be bunk. Weapons as tools are neutral and can not be barbaric, people however can be so please stop trying to feed me nonsense okay? Ok then by that logic you and others who suggest that Asgardian citizens should not be allowed to possess weapons have no place in this project. Because you all are displaying fear that the citizens owning weapons will cause things to end up badly. Rather than placing faith in your fellow Asgardians to exercise restraint and common sense when wielding said weapons! You want people to trust you, but refuse to trust them that is hypocritical and contradictory to your entire argument! Then perhaps you and others should trust your fellow Asgardians to not do anything stupid as you want them to trust you all. Trust is a two way street, no one is going to trust you when you show none to them.

Don't you understand yet? The people who will make up that society will come from Earth and all the nastiness Asgardia seeks to leave behind and last I checked. Human beings were not the peaceful, loving, and tolerant beings capable of creating the type of society Asgardia seeks to have. Not without a major overhaul of how they currently think and behave toward one another! You are acting as if Asgardia already exists and it's citizens have already created the type of society you want to see in Asgardia. I know what is going on no need to remind me and we are not just debating over a hypothesis. This is an issue that will eventually affect people, not some question backed by some vague data

Mar 31, 17 / Tau 06, 01 22:11 UTC

I wish for everyone to stop with traditions that are making them over see others and make them think they're better than every one else, I want people to stop caring how much money they want to have, money holds no place in my heart, family, love, and peace hold a place. I see humanities evolution and way of peace should start on earth. Stopping all wars, racism, glutney, and arrogance. I want scientific advancements to be more important then some idiot singer. I look up to scientist. I see our future in the stars, asgardia I'd the first step. But I know others will try to ruin that. I want unify and fortify. No violence no threats, but I also want anyone to be cowards, every life matters. I want to explore the stars and I want our people come to together and forget everything that makes us the monsters we can become. I wish for humanity to prosper. You also need to know though people will try to ruin it, destroy it, stop it, and will do what it takes, fighting in defense of our people is a way, we don't think always but those of who do always have different answers. Tell me when do you think humans will unify and no longer wage war on eachother and only on actual threats and only when needed? I honestly think by the year 4000 latest, earliest little after my death. I don't want people looking at eachother in hate, I want them to look at eachother and see family. Tell me do you think we won't have to fight? Or defend? I think we do? what about You? If you think we don't need weapons to evolve tell me how we evolve then, because those who do will force they way of life on us unless we can fight back. So how do we without weapons? We don't. Tell me how will humanity evolve to hate eachother no more? Show them the truth. War will end in humanity eventually but it happens outside our race. Should we be strong or weak? Rely on others? Or ourselves? We rely on ourselves. People should defend themselves but only when actually threatened. Not by words or a gesture. But when attacks. I think talking is better but doesn't always work. Now, how can we survive against threats with no way to fight back?

Mar 31, 17 / Tau 06, 01 23:54 UTC

What a mess this discussion became. Glad to see things are calming down. I will say it was interesting to see how the ideas evolved as tempers flared.

With my initial amusement out of the way, I thought I'd chime in. I agree with many in this thread that Asgardia is supposed to be a place where we can elevate ourselves above the issues of the Earth. That said, that may not always happen at the individual level, as seen in this thread. We all have our ideologies as to what Asgardia stands for, or should be. Some elements may not want Asgardia to succeed, whether out or personal or political ambitions.

I think it important to remember that the landscape Asgardia intends to inhabit is a space station. As such, sections of the space station may not be subject to gravity (closer to the core of the station), and as such, any free-floating objects are relatively free from the impact of gravity. Air resistance is negligible to the damage caused. (ie a fleck of paint can cause damage to space ships). So the type of ammunition must be carefully selected.

The biggest question I have after reading this thread is this. "What are the likely scenarios we must plan for?" Any travelers heading up to the station via shuttle or space elevator will first have to proceed through a form of airport security. (This is as much for the security of the base as it is for the space station) A security checkpoint would inevitably be required at all public and commercial docking points of the station, because not all inbound ships will have been cleared by Earth, but may at some point be en-route from other locations or fleets. (Or be rogue entities) I think it plausible that security forces would carry non-lethal weapons (for both personnel safety and the station's wellbeing), though I understand that there will always be scenarios where a lethal round was needed. But with proper security checks, this ought to be mitigated and rare.

In the event of a firefight or explosion, plague, etc. the station should simply lock-down affected areas to prevent spread. This could be a primary means of mitigating such events, though no security is ever perfect. It would be nearly impossible, not to mention costly to try and be prepared for every outcome, so we should prepare for the most likely. As Asgardia is intended to remain separate from Earth politics, there should be little reason that any Earth nation should ever target the station, though claims of espionage favoring a given nation will inevitably occur.

Perhaps the most important means of mitigating such events would be public mentality. If the citizens and travelers on-board the station seek to put aside national animosity, and focus on the positives, the station should also mitigate insider attacks. As for personal defense, any individual who seeks the capability to protect themselves should sign up for martial arts classes, possibly available on the station as new generations are born in space. Martial arts also imparts a mentality of balance in the individual, and grants them the tools needed for non-lethal self defense (knowing that there are lethal banned moves that are not taught).

100% security is impossible. An event will always happen. Sometimes, it happens because we try to prepare for everything.

  Last edited by:  Sean Dutton (Asgardian)  on Mar 31, 17 / Tau 06, 01 23:55 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 00:30 UTC

Sean Thank you, you understand both points and made it clear on our point and theirs, and honestly if we don't have non lethal guns, pretty see a small meme weapon would be good enough like a easy deploy batons, thank you Sean for coming in. :)

Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 02:14 UTC

And thank you, Boone, for the welcome. :)

Just a thought here on how to mitigate insider threats, assuming only security personnel have access to firearms. If the weapons were chipped in such a way that contact with a security figure allowed them to function, in the event that a gun was taken away from a security figure, the gun would not function. Of course, that would only prevent immediate use, and it could be some minutes to locate and remove said chip. (The technology is already being developed) The only way someone could have enough time to alter such a weapon would be to steal it without security knowing. But for that to happen, there would likely have to be a security breach, which raises even more red flags.

But if it came down to it, I think such a technology would be feasible, since unchipped weapons would be significantly harder to smuggle in. This is certainly a topic that will arise when security policies are being written for the actual station. I hope that the points in this discussion are brought up during the writing phase.

Edit:: Through 3D printing, one can also print plastic guns undetectable by standard sweeps. These weapons can be modular, and have an exterior design unlike any gun, while maintaining the functionality. This only requires someone to download a blueprint for it and send it to a 3D printer. So this is another security issue to take notice of. Insider threats would be very easy this way, with the only mitigation being to limit access to 3D printers on-board, or to have AI read through all incoming data. (or mimic miltary networks for computer protocols and screening) Though with civilian, you get non-business data, and risks of unethical espionage.

Aren't security talks fun? :D

  Last edited by:  Sean Dutton (Asgardian)  on Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 02:23 UTC, Total number of edits: 3 times

Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 03:44 UTC

Hello Sean,

The chipped weapons idea would actually be the most likely choice for any firearm allowed on board. Due to the fact that it would not function for anyone but the registered user. Unchipped weapons would not be that hard to smuggle on board. People will find ways that is always only a matter of time, so, I would not count smuggled weapons out as a possibility. As for the citizens carrying weapons, to make the whole idea safer the weapons can be manufactured by the government or a civilian branch of whatever defense or military force Asgardia has, fitted with a biometric scanner, coded to the buyer's dna through a retina scan or some such, registered in their databanks, and sold. This way the weapon would only work for the intended user, could have been modified before hand to fire non lethal rounds that would not have the power to punch through the hull, the police or whoever could easily track it, and people could still defend themselves

Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 04:29 UTC

While we are at it, tracking chips could allow these weapons to be monitored anywhere in the station, though this can be expensive depending on whether the service is third-party or in-house. Manufacturing costs of the chips and software, and introduction into the weapon designs also boost costs, though these too can be pulled out when disassembling the gun. The only way to prevent such tampering would be through 3D printing, where the process could be stopped to allow insertion of the chip and other modifications. Perhaps this method would be the best way to bring about security-only weapons and help prevent insider-attacks.

And again, I must emphasize the two-fold security measures hopefully in-place for bringing materials on-board. Not only would someone have to smuggle weapons off Earth, but then they would have to smuggle them onto the station, assuming the station or ship they boarded doesn't have its own checking procedures or technologies before heading to Asgardia.

Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 05:17 UTC

Hey Sean,

I thought about that idea too but, thought it would be too much of an invasion of privacy to implement. Not only would locations of the weapons be known at all times, the locations of their owners would be too and that does not sit right with me. Although, the weapons could also be designed to stop functioning if the chip/biometric scanner is removed. Which would be just as good as knowing where they are at all times and not invade anyone's privacy. As far as weapon smuggling goes, the weapons could be smuggled in piece by piece. Actually, if they are brought on board piece by piece, they would not by definition of the word be weapons and would not need to be smuggled in.

  Updated  on Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 05:19 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 05:43 UTC

Brandon is right on the smuggling and Sean as much as I hate my privacy being invaded a tracking chip would help keep track of gun users, I mean if your fun is being tracked or picked up then the battery died or it's illegal which would help. And the dna could work but same with the smuggling, hell where were you Sean? Me and Brandon been fighting with other people lol, go back a page and read our ideas for non lethal guns, your ideas would work to. Mech another who's with us thinks a rail gun with low power capabilities would help incompacitate the threat with rubber bullets, not a bad idea? I'm against lethal guns and blades on asgardia for they could damage the station. Us 4 could come up with better ideas for our non lethal weapons and rules for them! :D

  Last edited by:  Boone Johnson (Asgardian)  on Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 06:43 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times

Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 07:18 UTC

Just out of interest guys, can I pose a hypothetical to you:

By some amazing twist of fate and technology, the Asgardian space habitat was completed and ready for habitation 5 years from now. You've got your ticket and your bags are packed.

However, there is the issue of the civil code of Asgardia that was developed over the past five years and voted into effect by our political system. One of the codes state to the effect of: "unauthorised possession of items that have a primary purpose of being a weapon is punishable by forfeiting of rights to live on the Asgardian habitat."

What would you do?

  Updated  on Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 07:24 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 07:27 UTC

And before you go looking for a technicality, "weapon" is very broadly defined and includes things like tazers, hunting knives and non-lethal weapons.

  Updated  on Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 07:36 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times

Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 09:05 UTC

Brandon7, I've never seen the deaths due to weapons proven to be bunk, honestly, each time I argue with americans on the 2nd amendment, pointing out facts and numbers, it all comes down to "we also need weapons to defend ourselves form a tyrannic government" which, I'm sure, you'll find as ironic as I do. To me it requires way more effort to have faith in others than to simply decide we all carry weapons.

Boonejohn97, trust me, being strong doesn't always mean to harm others, to stay calm and solve things without using violence is way harder, I know that.

Sean.dutton said it best, why Asgardia should be even targeted by the terrorists? As I've said many times (and not only I), unlike on earth we can check with a greater amount of accuracy what will be sent to the station, ipso facto avoiding the problem of smuggled weapons, material used to build 3d printed weapons and so on.

It's almost impossible to have 100% security, we all know that, but if I have to choose, between:

a. only guards\police having weapons and strict security checks

b. everyone can carry a weapon

My answer si definitely a, I see to many accidents coming with the b option, plus, as I've said, it's not what I think Dr.Igor had in mind for this project.

In conclusion, nobody is saying that the police can't have lethal weapons, though, there should be a limited number and restricted access to them as it has been said, and nobody is saying that those rules can't be changed over time, but there's no need to start the life in Asgardia that way.

To anwer the question Scarbs asked, obviously I would gladly accept that rule.

  Last edited by:  Alexander Zuffi (Asgardian)  on Apr 1, 17 / Tau 07, 01 09:07 UTC, Total number of edits: 4 times