Jan 5, 17 / Aqu 05, 01 14:38 UTC

Yes we need it  

There is no point in creating something you can't protect, some one will take it from you, it happens with ideas, it happens all over our history and present.

Everybody should be trained to be ready for battle at anytime, we don't know who is out there and how they would see us, some should be able to be professionals.

If you wait until you need a military to create a military, you will fail, it won't be ready when you need it, it will scatter after the first hit, there's no point to have a quick training just to lose badly, better surrender.

WMD's are a great way to go as well as precision strikes, less "soldiers needed", deadly and kind of a peace keeper.

You don't have to be offensive. But you need to be able to defend and make it clear you are ready to go all the way. Only military man are trained to go all the way, we the people talk to the talk most of the time they walk the walk, and when politicians make a mistake we attack the military.... No!

We should attack the politicians when things go bad, military man fallow orders, from the Chief Executive, appointed by the people, the military protect the people.

On a broader spectrum of things if we had wars on earth we must understand that there will be wars in space. Fighting is natural. I don't like it at all but it seems that's how it is.

Some people live for that, it is clear that military man want to fight and there are millions on this earth. If we have to face an other race we must be prepared for disagreements and most important to defend our interest.

Not having a military or the equivalent in space would be irresponsible.

Have a nice day,

Jan 5, 17 / Aqu 05, 01 19:00 UTC

A military is for offensive capacity. Defence forces on the other hand are not military. Again, look to Japan a few decade after WWII.

Surrender is never a clever option unless you're assured they are going to take you somewhere you can cause more damage.

Yes I feel the average citizen could offer support in a situation that demands it, and training can be provided - but the chances of a "land invasion" will be low, as at almost all points off the surface of the Earth we are likely to hold the larger number, and be well established. Any method used to attempt to reach us will leave them incredibly vulnerable, meaning actual combat unlikely.

Any projectile launched from surface will afford more than reasonable mitigation time by a variety of methods. Such things require consideration, but not a great deal as most of these problems are already adequetely solved to the point of dismissing the possiblity of such an attack being sucessful.

If you create a military in space, then instantly you become a viable threat to all your borders - specifically at this point every nation on Earth. You further violate the outer space treaty and advertise your hostile intents.

WMD's are a great way to wipe out a large number of innocent civillians and there is no weapon of mass destruction capable of being used with precision. The clue is in the name: Weapon of Mass Destruction. It doesn't promote peace, it promotes reasons to attack you before you can use them, in novel ways difficult to counter. A weapon unused is a weapon wasted. And you have a weapon that you don't use, expect it to be taken off you and used against you. There's no sense having it unless we actually intend on using it, using it without hesitation, and consider further: attacking the Earth in any measure would directly violate founding ethics of Asgardia.

If we face another race, we'll worry about that when we get there - There's no reason at this stage to think they will be as hostile as humans, further, if required they can learn how agressive and destructive humans can be. That's not something as a species you appear to require to focus on.

Jan 5, 17 / Aqu 05, 01 19:14 UTC

there are techniques that can stop any attack we don't need weapons in asgardia (especially free access to weapons )

Jan 5, 17 / Aqu 05, 01 23:17 UTC

Good day EyeR,

Threats won't come from Earth, earth is US, and we are supposed to protect it, I'm talking about that vast unknown up there.

Defense Forces... You should probably look at World War I and the German "Defense Forces" as well as the IDF ordered couple of days ago to "Shoot To Kill".

WMD's is one thing, clearly to obliterate anything too stubborn to deal with "the last resort", precision strike is an other thing, meant to destroy a specific thing with a controlled radius of destruction.

Asteroids and Comets should also be engaged by the military.

Now... Military, Defense Forces, Cost Guards, National Guard... Let's forget about names for a second and make something clear... We are talking about armed career men.

Have you ever heard " the best defense is attack", I mean you can hear so many reason on why and why not.

Costa Rica doesn't have a military because they don't really need it... US, Russia they need it and the reason why there is peace is because they both have enough WMDs to whippe each other out and the rest of the world.

If someone can take you out with poor to non damage, you are at risk everytime you contradict or defend your interest.

Saying that you don't need a weapon if you don't plan to use it is like saying you only need a cow by the time you are hungry.

Of course if we have it is to use it, it doesn't mean we are going to blow ourselves up if we don't have enemies or we will create enemies in order to use them.

Anyways, it's just my point of view.

If we wait until the threat finds us, we might be lined up or long gone before we can respond.

Have nice day,

Jan 6, 17 / Aqu 06, 01 02:22 UTC

If it's so unknown, why are you convinced it's certainly a threat?

I'm well aware of military history. Your example with the German Defence forces and IDF is the foundations is flawed due to their foundations in deceit and clear and obvious examples of use in an offensive capacity with direct consequence to reduce quality of diplomatic relations - another failure to adhere to founding ethics - of the relevent nations involved. And actually great examples, if studied, of why we really wouldn't require a military.

You specifically mentioned WMD capacicty - which should never be a sensible goal for any sane individual, and only suitbable for mass execution of innocent civillians - "Precision strike" is an offensive capacity. Such would violate founding Asgardian ethics of protecting the Earth - You cannot protect it by attacking it.

Asteroids and comets should be engaged by engineers, miners. Steered to applicable orbital facilities and harvested of resources.

Now... A military would violate the outer space treaty, and be un-reconcilable with founding Asgardian ethics. Defence forces are another subject entirely, and specifically contain different definitions to "military". That's something to be very clear about. Very.

Yes, I have read Clausewitz, Tsun Tzu, Mao tse Tung, and many newer documents. There's only one reason why not, that matters, it violates founding ethics abusing our position in a military capacity. We could continue on with many other sensible ones, like it gives rise to an arms race in outer space, which would also violate the outer space treaty. There is no reasons for. There is literally no way to attack us we cannot reasonably mitigate with trivial means. Which you would realise if you'd paid attention to to this, or any of the other childish fear-ridden threads of similarity.

Arguments like US and Russia already have enough toys to kill the world are not really a viable excuse to be adding to that problem. If you'd actually harboured any real concern about this issue then you might of done even the slightest bit of research on the subject, and realise that anywhere we're likely to place habitations is assured to afford enough reponse time to mitigate as or shortly after leaving atmosphere. Equally, the same applies to one nation attacking another.

Of course if we have it is to use it, it doesn't mean we are going to blow ourselves up if we don't have enemies or we will create enemies in order to use them.

So, you would use weapons of mass destruction against the Earth? That sounds like peaceful demiliterised use of space. Blowing ourselves up seriously isn't an option, and neither is blowing them up. No, having such things is what creates the enemies. People like you being scared it will be used against them. Do you feel safer knowing I can destabilise the core of a star causing it to eject 65% of it's mass before collapsing into itself, and would deploy this capability in a childish game of mutual distruction? Or do you start thinking you might be able to get to me before I hit the button? Having such devices is just a reason to be attacked.

If you don't use it, and use it without hesitation, Yes. You really don't want a weapon. That hesitaiton is all it takes for it to be taken off you, where it will be used on you and the people you cared about. Past tense. Therefore, things of mass murder, like WMD's are not required.

Jan 6, 17 / Aqu 06, 01 14:29 UTC

I don't know man, you say having the weapons is what causes the attack but that is suicide. I've read of civilizations get obliterated because they don't have powder.

And when ever I play civilization the only way I can be relaxed is if I run the show, some how the AI always looks for the weakes point of my military might.

Why it would be a treat what is out there... Probability... If we take the size of the earth as reference and the number of "enemies" on earth just make a proportional association with space. It can't be all good or all bad. (I don't consider anyone an enemie).

And on my comment I said "wouldn't" I didn't say would...😂 No body is attacking earth my friend.

In the end, if you can use 65% of a stars energy you have created a weapon/tool remind me of this new cool alien movie...

So yeah Axe is a tool, Sword is a tool... I don't know about civilians man, if a ship comes full with soldiers from who knows where you might want to blow the whole ship instead of fighting then one by one.

In earth warfare you can blow up a WMD in the middle of the ocean to stop a huge navy formation it dosent involve civilians.

Military is like Gay Mariage and Abortion people either love it or hate it.

I personally believe is more of a Need then a question of liking it or not. But hey... If you want to wait for Independence Day instead of stoping them up there....

Lol, have a nice day,

  Last edited by:  Carlos Alfredo BENJAMIN MARTINEZ (Asgardian)  on Jan 6, 17 / Aqu 06, 01 14:43 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: Make clear I love earth and it's people. Just said enemie to explain how it's politically perceived by some countries.

Jan 6, 17 / Aqu 06, 01 19:56 UTC

Weapons are tools of offensive capacity. We have no need for these. We are unlikely to ever have "powder" - gunpowder, or even cordite being quite primitive, let alone the rediculousness of firearms in space. That doesn't mean we are sitting targets for erradication. This seriously isn't a topic you've lent much thought. Just unfounded and undereducated fear. Clearly.

This isn't a game of civilisaiton, if it was I would of completed it by now, multiple times. It's also possible to complete that without building any units with offensive capacity, or moving any units outside of your territories. Your inability to relax isn't something we should all suffer for. Any hostile nation attempting to analyse our weaknesses will rapidly give up - before getting to anything that could even remotely be defined as military - or we've done a really piss poor job of designing facilities, systems, policies, procedures etc and will have a lot more serious problems to be concerned with than a nation investing billions into a small scale assault that is inevitably due complete and assured failure.

Pretending to acknowledge the potential existence of other extra-terrestial races, you seem to subscribe a lot of weight to human behaviour and postulate they will conform to the same fallicies. It's highly likely that to of solved the problems with crossing the vast distances of space they would of long previously solved any tendancy to destroy themselves, or probability suggests they would of destroyed themselves a long time before evolving past a stage two civilisation.

If these weapons are not for attacking, what are they for? looking pretty? You have somewhere else to attack other than Earth?

Damn right you won't be attacking Earth - you won't be afforded the opportunity, the easiest way to achieve this being not allowing you the weapon capacity in the first place.

And no, such a weapon would not use 65% of a stars energy. I can envison no way to harvest this. For a start I'd said mass, and it would just abuse it in a way that would effectively kill the star by ejecting it's contents - the precise method used to achieve I feel unwise to discuss with the immature - and in the process mutilate a large part of the solar system, and thorugh lack of gravimetric adherence disperse the rest that survives into the depths of space. I noticed you specifically avoided revealing if such a capacity made you feel safer, knowing that at any minute everything you've ever known is wiped from the face of existence.

An axe is a tool, but a sword is a weapon. One is used to (commonly) chop wood, the other is for causing harm. I do know about civillians, and most would likely be useless in a full scale invasion, IMHO, but the ones who can think or act tactically will be more than enough to do the job. However, to entertain this possibility, the "ship full of soldiers" would require to dock, first. Why would that be allowed? Multiple non-lethal methods could be employed in order to enforce they keep distance, and if somehow no other option was viable, we would be able to use lethal means trivially without actually using "weapons". For example, focusing cutting lasers onto their fuel tanks, centrafugally launching a ten tonne container full of sillicon dioxide into an intercept course... To come close enough to be a "threat" to us, we are a much greater threat to them, being well established and better prepared. The first consideration by anyone thinking of taking such actions.

Lets pretend that the assault attempt could somehow survive our best attempts at mitigation. Attempts to forcibly pressurise the airlocks could be simply dispersed into space, if not added to our tanks - they'll soon run out of atmosphere and be forced to abandon the attempt. Attempts to open the inner airlock without pressurising would be most unwise, to them more than us. We can close the inner and outer airlock again once the pressure has removed(likely destroyed) the ship from our docking port. The requirement to utilse the external surface area as a heatsink in order to disperse the excess thermal energy from significantly populated installations would mean any attempts to breach externally or disable/disrupt systems will slowly cook them, the longer they try it, the more they cook. Considering the radiation sheilding alone is likely to be several meters thick(thicker, if I have anything to say) then cutting their way in is unlikely to be an option, and due to pressure, unlikely to of be much use to them. Spacewalks without tether are commonly unwise, and tethered their distances from the ship should concentrate them in easy to deal with clusters, and the tethers as much as the ship itself becomes a target. If somehow magically our best attempts at mitigation fail and further they are somehow magically able to dock and start moving troops into the facility, then they are concentrated into a single area. Being vastly outnumbered, they could have their weapons - if they are stupid enough to attempt to bring some - simply removed from them with the person(s) securely cable-tied as they attempt to cross the threshold. Any weapon they bring can be easily mitigated, projectile weaponry being unable to compete against various combinations of metal foam and non-newtonian fluids to resist the initial forces and to disperse the penetrative forces. Electricity based attacks mitigated with providing an easier path of conduction than the body, Sonic based attacks commonly mitigated with hearing protection... Anything they can bring to the table has already been mitigated. And if we wanted to use lethal means, the concentrated ingress points make this trivial to mow them like blades of grass.

Earth warfare is none of our concern - beyond encouraging the cessation of such pathetic and unproductive behaviours. Options to provide this encouragement do not include attacking the Earth. Least of all for founding Asgardian ethics of "peacful use of space" - it is not a platform with which to launch an attack on another nation, hostile or otherwise. There's also much better ways of dealing with a fleet of ships than "WMD". Precise methods. And being in the middle of the ocean doens't make it "safe" - the food chain starting in the oceans, much of Earths oxygen created by ocean life and the devestation/pollution of this facet of the ecosystem representing almost a greater threat to the Earth's survival than the idiot incapable of reaching logical conclusions that thought it was clever to posess, let alone use such weaponry, as it impacts all life on Earth, not just civillians, or even humans.

[MOD EDIT] edited to remove offensive remarks As previously mentioned, multiple times, Defence forces are not a military, and the differences are incredibly significant in this case, and as such deserve to be noted.

Your personal (and highly inaccurate) perception doesn't entirely equate to a defacto requirement. Especially when this violates established treaties and even the founding principles on which the nation has been based. I've no intent on waiting for state-enacted holiday where citizens simply celebrate their collective stupidity of replacing one criminally corrupt system with the same thing under a different name and different group of people directly reaping the benefits. I was under the impression that the whole point of Asgardia was to remove ourselves of that sort of thing. As much as removing your own personal fears that lead to irrational behaviours. Evolve.

  Last edited by:  Alan Player (Asgardian)  on Jan 16, 17 / Aqu 16, 01 12:29 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times
Reason: typo. Edited by mod to remove offensive content

Jan 7, 17 / Aqu 07, 01 14:32 UTC

I think you are missing my point.

No military. fine!

I won't argue more. Let's just be target practice.

Yes I do believe that conquest is not something sole human, virus and bacteria act the same way, is natural, everything spread.

Denfense forces... Fine.

Let's see how that goes.

Jan 14, 17 / Aqu 14, 01 13:47 UTC

No, we need a military, unfortunately, because...

I'm in every training protection including military,firs aid or medical training, emergency defense to protect earth (even from the earth and for future from the space) from anything like Aliens, any guests or enemies from the other planets, galaxies and... we have to not simple military training We are not just an simply training or education, perhaps, we have to get special trainings, I think we should also have a more private training than the special forces or army's because we are asgardian, not a simple soldier, Our job is not to arrest a thief or something in earth, we have to protect earth, Our real and important job is to protect the world, (from inside or for future outside the earth), if aliens from the other universes, Before the army of all countries ready for it, they weapons facilities are a thousand times more advanced from humanity army's, if you see science fiction movies, they have a great example from aliens how they can be dangerous for us, like star trek into darkness (khan Laser weapon) he made a man tow piece in kronos it's terrible, and Thor into the dark world (man's or enemies like malekith) if they coming, we never know it, before we wake up they army hunt us down and And they takeover whole world,

more terrible examples about aliens like: -the avengers (luki and his army, Chitauri), -Thor (in new Mexico, destroyer), -Avengers age of ultron (ultron robots army), -War of the worlds (2005), -edge of tomorrow (2014),

And more than close to us asgardia: -Independence Day: Resurgence: (they try to made a defense for protect earth.) ... this solution is we have to learn more that anyone else or army from aliens, they weapons, they armys, how are they fight, we have to ready and can fight and destroy them, If they are tough we have to be stronger and tougher than them, I'm sorry for take your time guys, but i have to say that.

I'm so want to be a military or special force in my whole life,this is my dream to be a solider, now i feel myself an asgardian solider or peacekeeper, Let's protect our humanity, our world asgardian solider's, One humanity, One unity, one Asgardia With love and respect...fatemeh ghodrari.

Jan 15, 17 / Aqu 15, 01 04:22 UTC

No, we have no need for a military, fortunately, because....

Weapons are tools of offensive capacity. We have no need for these. We are unlikely to ever have "powder" - gunpowder, or even cordite being quite primitive, let alone the rediculousness of firearms in space. That doesn't mean we are sitting targets for erradication. This seriously isn't a topic you've lent much thought. Just unfounded and undereducated fear. Clearly.

However, to entertain this possibility, the "ship full of soldiers" would require to dock, first. Why would that be allowed? Multiple non-lethal methods could be employed in order to enforce they keep distance, and if somehow no other option was viable, we would be able to use lethal means trivially without actually using "weapons". For example, focusing cutting lasers onto their fuel tanks, centrafugally launching a ten tonne container full of sillicon dioxide into an intercept course... To come close enough to be a "threat" to us, we are a much greater threat to them, being well established and better prepared. The first consideration by anyone thinking of taking such actions.

Lets pretend that the assault attempt could somehow survive our best attempts at mitigation. Attempts to forcibly pressurise the airlocks could be simply dispersed into space, if not added to our tanks - they'll soon run out of atmosphere and be forced to abandon the attempt. Attempts to open the inner airlock without pressurising would be most unwise, to them more than us. We can close the inner and outer airlock again once the pressure has removed(likely destroyed) the ship from our docking port. The requirement to utilse the external surface area as a heatsink in order to disperse the excess thermal energy from significantly populated installations would mean any attempts to breach externally or disable/disrupt systems will slowly cook them, the longer they try it, the more they cook. Considering the radiation sheilding alone is likely to be several meters thick(thicker, if I have anything to say) then cutting their way in is unlikely to be an option, and due to pressure, unlikely to of be much use to them. Spacewalks without tether are commonly unwise, and tethered their distances from the ship should concentrate them in easy to deal with clusters, and the tethers as much as the ship itself becomes a target. If somehow magically our best attempts at mitigation fail and further they are somehow magically able to dock and start moving troops into the facility, then they are concentrated into a single area. Being vastly outnumbered, they could have their weapons - if they are stupid enough to attempt to bring some - simply removed from them with the person(s) securely cable-tied as they attempt to cross the threshold. Any weapon they bring can be easily mitigated, projectile weaponry being unable to compete against various combinations of metal foam and non-newtonian fluids to resist the initial forces and to disperse the penetrative forces. Electricity based attacks mitigated with providing an easier path of conduction than the body, Sonic based attacks commonly mitigated with hearing protection... Anything they can bring to the table has already been mitigated. And if we wanted to use lethal means, the concentrated ingress points make this trivial to mow them like blades of grass.

Earth warfare is none of our concern - beyond encouraging the cessation of such pathetic and unproductive behaviours. Options to provide this encouragement do not include attacking the Earth. Least of all for founding Asgardian ethics of "peacful use of space" - it is not a platform with which to launch an attack on another nation, hostile or otherwise.

Your personal (and highly inaccurate) perception doesn't entirely equate to a defacto requirement. Especially when this violates established treaties and even the founding principles on which the nation has been based. I was under the impression that the whole point of Asgardia was to remove ourselves of that sort of thing. As much as removing your own personal fears that lead to irrational behaviours. Evolve.

Oh, look, I can copy and paste previous content, too - but I can actually make sense when I do it.

Jan 16, 17 / Aqu 16, 01 06:37 UTC

You guys do understand that international treaties exist specifically to prevent the militarization of space, correct?

Jan 16, 17 / Aqu 16, 01 10:00 UTC

Safety of Asgardia and Asgardians is one of the primary concerns. You can see the statement of Dr. Igor Ashurbeyli on the concept page that Asgardia is Peace in Space, and the prevention of Earth’s conflicts being transferred into space. You can find the concept of Asgardia at this link. https://asgardia.space/en/page/concept

Also, you may want to review Dr. Ashurbeyli's most recent video address mentioning several things including the safety and security of Asgardia. You can view that here. On the home page https://asgardia.space/en/ or on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMP51UQlmAg

While we value your freedom of expression, several types of statements are not allowed in this group. If there is confusion about what those are, please refer to the terms of the group. Your presence here implies agreement to those terms. https://asgardia.space/en/forum/forum/forum-announcements-10/topic/asgardiaspace-posting-rules-82/

We would like to take this time to remind you that free speech =/= freedom from responsibility for your statements. Even in law, certain types of speech (such as hate speech) are not protected under free speech laws/ rights. There is a distinction for a reason, and we have chosen to mirror that attitude here. Dr. Ashurbeyli has emphasized throughout the life of this project that PEACE is one of his primary goals and allowing hateful speech or discrimination is not in line with that goal. Thank you :)

Jan 19, 17 / Aqu 19, 01 17:43 UTC

i have the same thing, we don't need military!!! there isn't PEACE with Army.

  Last edited by:  Gabriele Lanzi (Asgardian)  on Jan 19, 17 / Aqu 19, 01 17:44 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Jan 20, 17 / Aqu 20, 01 09:41 UTC

So, while you all are arguing about whether the army is needed for Asgardia I am ready to join the slender ranks of the defenders of the interests of our young state. I think my 23 years of experience in the service of one of the strongest armies in the world is this great help.

Jan 20, 17 / Aqu 20, 01 13:59 UTC

Why not just have a "national guard" that trains once a month or so. We could also have everyone that becomes of age and are eligible to go to "training" to familiarize themselves with a weapon and the such nothing major. Have a police/security force that focuses on defense only.