Mar 2, 17 / Ari 05, 01 17:05 UTC

A webcomic got me to thinking about guilt  

I read a lot of webcomics (and news articles, and...) but most recently one has been dealing with the concepts of actions and morality.

It starts here.
http://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-6/page-111-2/

And it goes for another 14 pages worth of comics.

In breakdown, it comments on how the ends justify the means (or not), whether those who have power should use it to inflict their own brand of morality upon others, and what happens after actions are taken that may be considered by some as immoral in an effort to 'make things right'. I think it also breaks down guilt, its causes, and how one might deal with such things.

Therefore, I ask, what is the premise of guilt? Why do we even have it as an emotion?

It is generally presumed that each individual makes the best choices for themselves when presented with an opportunity to make choices. Because of this, when we make a decision, it is based on that information, which was the best available to us. Why would someone make a decision that is not in their best interest? Even selflessness, or doing something 'wrong' to help someone who is not yourself, is still making a decision which is best for you, because you are preventing yourself from feeling guilty about not doing something you could have done.

What is guilt good for?

Mar 2, 17 / Ari 05, 01 17:23 UTC

Forgive me, but I don't see how that makes sense.

Let us take Asgardia as an excellent example. We are all part of this community, but I do not see how anyone could feel guilty through their association or actions within it, if they were only acting in their own self-interests. No matter which individual you encounter, if they are only sharing that which they wish to share, behaving in accordance with their own moral compass, and not being coerced in any manner, how could any action they perform make them feel guilty?

Perhaps you are correct, but the source of guilt is not internal. Perhaps guilt is a social weapon, used by a community on an individual in an effort to control the behaviors of an individual. The pain that stems from guilt is actually being inflicted by what that individual believes will happen to them if they do not conform to their community (whether these will happen can be real or imagined), against their own wishes and interests.

If this is correct, individuals incapable of feeling guilty are not truly part of any community. In fact such an individual would be far more dangerous to a community than those who can feel guilty, stemming from the fact that the community has no social power or ability to control the actions of that individual. The only resort the community could use to control the actions of that guilt-less individual would be physical control, such as incarceration or exile.

With this in mind, how should Asgardia deal with people who cannot or will not feel guilty?

Mar 2, 17 / Ari 05, 01 17:41 UTC

Guilt is usually expressed by an individual when through action (or inaction) a community (or community member) suffers a perceived "injury" or damage.

My question was more about why would someone do something that made them feel guilty in the first place?
What underlying motivations could be possible to cause a person to perform an act they should or would know would later make them feel guilty?

As a general assumption, it can be surmised that no one will engage in an act that would cause them to spend more resources than they believe they would gain. Under this assumption, there must be something that that individual believes can be gained that would be greater than the resources they would lose as a member of the community.

Thus, I ask, why would anyone do something that they would later feel guilty about? What motivations could possibly compel such an act?

Mar 4, 17 / Ari 07, 01 18:58 UTC

Well, people rarely feel guilty before the action and rarely anticipate that they will feel guilty about a planned action. Guilt is an aversion, not a desire. People who choose to do something that they expect to make them guilty are edge cases and I do not think relevant to the general ontology of guilt, any more than people who eat poisons for fun are relevant to why people eat in general. In your assumption, the key factor is that actors believe their decision is the rational one, but you're sidestepping the problem of predicting the future accurately and consequences of the mismatch of expectations and result.

I think you are running through the collective intentionality question (you and me vs. us). I am participating in a discussion and you are participating in a discussion, but how is it that we can be participating in a discussion? Opponents of collective intentionality argue that this is a bridge that can not be logically crossed, that one (you) plus one (me) is indeed two (us), but neither one (you or me) is transmogrified into a two (us). Proponents of collective intentionality generally also argue this is a logical impossibility, but sidestep it by arguing that we simply have the ability to be both complex and simple simultaneously. Or to put it more simply, I know that we are doing a thing together and you know that we are doing a thing together so we both understand that we are doing a thing together while also knowing that we are still separate people outside the scope of the relevant behavior. The same thing can be done with statuses where it is more clearly removed from material phenomena, such as I am a blue blood and you are a blue blood and blue bloods know that blue bloods watch out for each other's interests before the interests of red bloods, so we are blue bloods as defined by our relative behavior to in-groups and out-groups.

Strictly social behaviors, such as guilt, are most easily understood in terms of signalling. A promises to do X, but the actual result is Y. B is injured by Y and signals the injury to A. A receives B's signal and responds with a signal. B responds to A's signal. A change in behavior occurs in one, both, or neither. This is complex behavior per se, so while the formulas are simple there is an indefinitely large number of potential results, depending heavily on the exact variables, initial conditions, and the sequence of events. B's injury signal is sensitively dependent to both the intensity of A's promise (reluctant to absolute) and B's particular valuation of the injury caused by Y, and to B's self-assessment of A's worth and relative social status, and so runs from dismissal of claim ("Didn't even notice, sir!") to disproportionate retribution ("I'll kill you, scum!"). A's response signal, which is an expression of the emotional response to B's signal, is sensitively dependent to B's particular injury signal ("Ow!" or "You SOB!"), to B's particular injury, to A's self-assessment of their own intentions in attempting X, to A's self-assessment of B's worth and relative social status, and to a great many other factors, and so runs from reversal of claim ("It was your fault, jerk!") to retribution ("I feel terrible, please take this."). B's response is likewise sensitively dependent to these kinds of factors ("What is your problem?!") and expresses their emotional response to the previous signal ("I['ll never] forgive you."). From a relatively simple set of possibilities, there is a practically infinite set of combinations.

The purpose is always to effect some kind of behavioral change, directly by causing an action or indirectly by changing the valuation of some thing. Because we are rational and aware of each other's rationality and desires and aversions, we can tailor our responses to prompt desired responses in others. This tailoring happens both consciously and unconsciously. Guilt belongs to a class of aversions that motivate people to avoid a previous behavior. Other emotions in this class are regret, shame, embarrassment, trauma, etc. All of these emotions are in response to phenomena/actions/events and all of these emotions affect the valuation of the phenomena negatively. These emotions are why we learn from failure. Not all animals do.

  Last edited by:  Michael Hoselton (Asgardian)  on Mar 4, 17 / Ari 07, 01 19:05 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time