Cap 10, 01 / Dec 12, 17 22:22 UTC

Re: Money or moneyless?  

Barter systems will not work because it has the same problems as a capitalism.
Communism will also not work as it has existed which is authoritarian in nature and exists within a monetary system.
Here are the features of a monetary system:

* recession and inflation
* greed, corruption, and exploitation
* pollution and destruction of the ecology
* income inequality which has powerful negative biopyschosocial effects
* planned obsolescence and waste
* war and violence
* crime, poverty, homelessness
* systemic ‘isms (racism, sexism, nationalism, patriotism, etc)

If you are OK with these systemic features of a monetary system being responsible for killing millions of innocent people each year, then yea, we can do that.
=O =) 

Profit is all that matters. My post above goes into this is much more detail. 
If you have not read the book The New Human Rights Movement, then please do.
It really goes into amazing depth with studies, facts, and experts, etc.

The only real option that is possible is a Resource Based Economy. I have an entire series of articles on this:

https://asgardia.space/en/blog/21801-the-case-for-an-asgardian-economic-system-part-1-the-problem/

Technically we have a surplus economy in many places and it could be worldwide, if we chose to.

* In the US we throw away enough food to feed 3 times our population and that is with very inefficient methods of production.
With localized aquaponic vertical farms there could be more food then we could ever need and it would be completely sustainable.
* We also have enough housing for 3 times our population too.
* We could have a surplus energy worldwide for thousands of years with alternative energy. 

This will be similar all throughout the first world nations. We have the resources, knowledge, and technology we need to solve all of the the world's problems. Money is what keeps the second and third world nations from having a similar quality of life.

Capitalism is what gets in the way. There is no money to be made in actually solving problems and helping Humanity.

A Resource Based Economy would not be at all complicated nor limiting.
It just requires a lot of computational power, maximizing automation, powerful AI to process a global data driven sustainable management of the world's resources. =)

Cap 11, 01 / Dec 13, 17 05:38 UTC

Other than the fact that it avoids the use of cash, and has a computer make decisions instead of a bureaucrat, and of course a new shiny name, I am unable to find any real differences between communism and RBE. From what I can tell it still does not in any way encourage people to be productive members of society. Some might be just because they love their job that much, and some might be because they really want to make society better, but most people (and even those in these two categories) will eventually do the minimum required if there is nothing to gain from doing more. We are naturally lazy and any system that does not reward innovation and hard work will eventually fail, and will certainly never lead to becoming a scientific leader in the world (necessity breeds invention).

As for money being responsible for the laundry list of topics you have. Only a few of those connect to money. Some connect to capitalism (which is an economic system that uses money, but it is the system that has issues, not the fact that it uses money). Some are related to ego and the natural human tendencies. The isms, for instance, are the result of ego and our desire to think that we are somehow better than someone else (it doesn't really matter who, someone gives us a group of people for us to think we are better than, and we are eager to accept it so that we can feel special and important. That's ego, not money. Similar is true with most of that list. Inflation would not happen without money, but inflation alone isn't bad. High inflation is bad, but that is a result of bad fiscal policy. Inflation itself is at worst neutral. Greed, corruption, and exploitation are not a money thing, they are a part of the human condition, and will certainly exist with or without money. In fact the oldest stories in history, from before money was invented, share tales of these traits.

Calling these systematic features of a monetary system makes as much sense as saying the only two options are a resource based economy or unbridled capitalism, or saying that a resource based economy gives you Star Trek or every one having access to jet skis 24/7 (as an article you previously linked to suggested RBE would allow). None of these are valid statements. I am not saying we should have a capitalist society. I'm just saying that I have yet to encounter any suggestion for a cashless society that offered any advantage over a cash based one, and that includes RBE. Most of the reasons people don't like cash is because of economic systems they don't like.

Cap 11, 01 / Dec 13, 17 19:47 UTC

Upon reflection, I may have been a little harsh in my last post. While the sentiments and reasons stand, I will work on better researching this economic system. From what I can see so far, it shares communism most destructive trait which is a lack of a system to reward good work (be it working hard, developing skills, or creating new discoveries). I wouldn't say that capitalism necessarily does this as well as would be ideal, though. If RBE has tenants in it or can be modified to include tenants that reward people for achievement than I could see it being viable. I'll work on doing more research on it as so far all I know is what you have said or what you have linked to. Right now it just seems to share too many of communism's worst traits. All that being said, I do stand by the statement that the concept of currency is not the cause of all ghe problems you listed off. Greed, ego, capitalism, and central banking are the root cause of almost all of those.

Cap 12, 01 / Dec 14, 17 11:24 UTC

I initially just wanted to say hi as my dads family is from Scotland. Then I read a couple of your posts. I read we would all only have to work one day a week to supply all we need? So perhaps we could find a way to use the extra time to use a a way to trade for any extra material items or something? Anyhow a world were the head count and the production of resources, medicine, schools is something I have dreamed about. Though I am an uneducated cleaner, until I read your post I was not sure this would be possible for all? I'm not sure how it would go, sorting out who gets what after we have worked out the initial basics needed to survive, but believe we would find a way to organise ourselves and fulfil the extras needed in life the material and activities that also make our lives worth living. I'm not against asguardia having a monetary system as we live in a world which is probably far away from living how we need to live as apposed to how a small minority of the population believe we should exist? But hopefully asguardia is the right step in that direction


Cap 13, 01 / Dec 15, 17 21:16 UTC


@Loudjo72

My post linked to at the top of the page (The Cancer of Capitalism and Its Antidote) has a lot of that information and many, many links to research.
I also have a study track there to guide you during the process.

I have 3 blog posts here about this topic and here is where is starts:

https://asgardia.space/en/blog/21801-the-case-for-an-asgardian-economic-system-part-1-the-problem/

* THE CASE FOR AN ASGARDIAN ECONOMIC SYSTEM  (PART 1): THE PROBLEM
* THE CASE FOR AN ASGARDIAN ECONOMIC SYSTEM  (PART 2): THE SOLUTION
* THE CASE FOR AN ASGARDIAN ECONOMIC SYSTEM  (PART 3): THE IMPLEMENTATION




  Last edited by:  James O'Neill (Asgardian)  on Cap 13, 01 / Dec 15, 17 21:17 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Aqu 03, 02 / Jan 3, 18 08:15 UTC

@James.. I completely support this system. I suggested it is my post as well.

I believe that this system will allow us to focus on developing for the advancement of mankind than worrying about how we're going to afford things...

I do agree capitalism is still necessary for trade with Earth, but as a domestic system, I see capitalism as being dangerous... I would support this Resource base economy system, but we need to give it a name (since capitalism and socialism are both also resource based).. I like, "Fresco RBE"..

 

Aqu 03, 02 / Jan 3, 18 08:39 UTC

I think the issue is that we all grew up in a money dependent societies. Because of this, it is difficult for many of us to imagine a system that is not about "rewards"..

If anyone need reference of a working RBE system, you only have to look at the open source projects.. The only issue OS has is that it lives on top of capitalist systems. In other words, at the end of the day, the participants have to consume and the only way to consume is to make money. Now, imagine the open source system where the participants does not have to worry about affording things - all is provided for them so that they only need to focus on their part of the projects?




Aqu 23, 02 / Jan 23, 18 22:31 UTC

@Wynchester.


Exactly, My series of posts above covers it.

A delicate dance between internal RBE or sorts, at least on a systems level, with an external capitalist interface will be required.