Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 02:03 UTC

Eliminate the monetary system and here's why.  

Good day,

Thank you for taking the time to read my alternate proposal. Please keep in mind that this explanation is an oversimplified summary of a much bigger and very detailed blueprint that I have been working on for years.

I understand that what I am proposing is reliant on changing everything we know about politics and economics. It is also very dependant on technology that is currently very new and needs a lot of refinement in order for this system to work. I predict that by the time we have citizens living aboard a space nation, most of us, if not all of us are likely to be ling gone and that we are basically building framework for a future generation that will ultimately be the citizens living our dream.

Please keep an open mind and feel free to offer alternatives, tweaks, or constructive criticism and explain your reasoning so that the issues brought up can be addressed and hopefully we can build on the idea rather than just commenting "it won't work" as that really accomplishes nothing and offers no solution.

The Monetary Stystem

Since the dawn of civilization, nations have been built on the blood and sweat of the common people. The strong warriors and hunters would enslave the weak and force them into servitude under the threat of starvation and death.

As generations passed, not much has changed. The biggest difference today is that we have the illusion of freedom but we are just as enslaved as ever. If you don't work, you starve.

But why?

Ever since the invention of the axe and hammer, we have found ways to make work easier and more efficient so that we can work less and accomplish more. It is undeniable that we have advanced as a civilization exponentially with each time and labour saving invention.

Today's workforce is terrified of the next step in manufacturing advancement, enter the robot generation. 1 robot can effectively replace a hundred jobs and can cost the company as little as a single years salary of 1 employee. The robot makes fewer mistakes, never calls in sick, doesn't need breaks, take vacation and can't go on strike.

Countries around the world are scrambling to implement universal basic income to attempt to be ready for the 50% job loss projected by the robot revolution. With jobs few and far between this is going to put a massive burden on the government to provide for people and therefore the "basic" income is going to be just enough, if not almost enough to get by. This essentially predicts that at least 50% of the population is expected to become unemployed and lower class and will be the official end of the middle class. Compainies will get to the point of a small handful of actual employees and absolutely astonishing profit margins as their workforce is completely autonomous.

So now let's look at Asgardia. Currently it is an idea, not a nation and definitely not a physical ship at this time. We are the architects, we are the intelligent designers of a new age. Why would we compliment a system that is crumbling all over the world, just to have to reform it like the rest of the world? So how can we deal with this issue? How can we avoid the issues of earth nations?

Asgardia is a ship. It is nothing more than technology in action so let's put technology in action.

If we design the ship with 100% self sustainable and autonomous in mind from the start, there's no jobs to lose to robots because robots already do them.

Let's look at this from goal #1

  1. develop autonomous space mining machines to mine raw materials from asteroids, the moon, mars etc.

  2. develop autonomous transport ships to bring materials to manufacturing plants.

  3. develop autonomous manufacturing plants that utilize the latest in 3d printing and similar manufacturing technology.

  4. develop an autonomous shipyard that assembles manufactured parts to build Asgardia from the inside out.

  5. design all systems in Asgardia to be autonomous from the Agriculture and lab grown food production, food service and preparation, energy systems, water recycling systems etc. Everything... We do have the technology and I can only imagine how much it will improve by the time we are actually building the ship.

  6. ensure that all personal living quarters are equipped with with the latest in 3d printing technology and a digital archive of product plans so that Asgardians don't buy products, they make them. (Probably easier to order the product from a central processing center and products are delivered by robot)

  7. integrated VR and AI technology into education system by designing virtual mentors and coursework and eliminating the need for teachers and classrooms. Corsework would be designed by volunteer scholars.

  8. integrate fire suppression systems into the walls, floors, ceilings etc. Using the latest technology so that fire teams are no longer needed and can be replaced with a handful of volunteers.

  9. AI integrated health care systems that can diagnose illness and dispense per dose medication directly in your living quarters as needed, eliminating prescription substance abuse. Monitor your health and wellbeing 24 hours a day as to catch illness before an outbreak (which when in close quarters on a spaceship is pretty important. Print casts, give vaccines, preform surgeries etc.

By embracing science and technology (which I thought was kinda the point of Asgardia) there really is No need for money other than in a few circumstances such as travel to earth and foreign trade with earth.

My proposed solution to this problem is that we can trade our ability to manufacture scientific space technology to other countries for the things we can not find or produce ourselves with earth nations. This eliminates most financial transactions however, our ability to produce expensive technology at low cost would also allow us to sell our technology for monetary gain to countries as well as private companies who otherwise may not have had the capital or resources to build the tech on earth and then shoot it into space. The monetary gains would be in the global trade currency (whatever that may be by then) would be shared 100% equally to all Asgardian citizens for the event that they want to travel to earth for vacation. This would also include and national income from tourism or any other commerce.

I realize this is hard to swallow and sounds like a plot to a sci-fi movie but the fact is, I did not refer to any technology that we don't already have and use. Yes maybe the tech isn't quite ready for all that but let me ask you something. How many years has it been since computers started showing up on the market? 1981 during the release of the first IBM personal computer. Also the year I was born... Coincidence? Yes, yes it is. But the point is, that was 35 years ago. We have at least 50 years before the beginning of construction on a project of this scale. So tell me that technology won't be ready by then...

So tell me your thoughts. Tell me why this won't work. Tell me that I'm a dreamer because I'm not the only one.

Mod Edit I've edited this post correct the formatting of the numbered list - Jason Rainbow 22 January 2017 @ 03:19 am

  Last edited by:  Jason Rainbow (Global Admin, Global Mod, Asgardian)  on Jan 22, 17 / Aqu 22, 01 03:20 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: Formatting correction

Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 02:37 UTC

Who will monitor and repair all the autonomous equipment? Volunteers? Why would anyone want to give up their spare time to learn how to do all of that Most people will be sitting around all day twiddling their thumbs with nothing to do and getting free everything provided by the state.

Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 04:51 UTC

I can't speak for you but I know that personally I'd go crazy sitting around doing nothing. I would learn new skills and follow my passions. Specialize in different fields and contribute to new research and advancement. In fact there still wouldn't be enough time in the day for me to do everything I want to do. But that's me abd personally I was under the impression that was most of us here.

As for maintaining the machines, in my little sci-fi fantasy I am discussing building This ship in the realistic future, say 75-100 years from now, using parts mined and manufactured autonomously in space.... I'm projecting a huge advancement in robotics and automated machinery in the next 100 years, given that people we're getting their first pc only 35 years ago and we've already come so far. I imagine that repair drones and self diagnostic AI will likely take care of that issue.

Let's face It, the robotic age isn't coming, it's here. The only reason most of us still have jobs is because companies can't switch over all at once because it would be very expensive and probably cause chaos and ecconomic collapse because we aren't prepared for it.....yet

It is going to happen and let's be real, it should happen. As humans, that's what we do. We create ways to not have to do things and well, we're pretty efficient and being lazy. Look around you and tell me honestly that you don't see this happening already and that in the next 75 to 100 years, this won't be the status quo.

Again, this is 1 part of a much bigger blueprint and is merely a starting point. Its up to everyone to figure out the solution to any problem we come up with rather than ignoring it as an alternative.

Removing monetary motivavation cures a hell of a lot more problems then it causes from where I see it.

Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 07:40 UTC

I am all for advancing technology but my logic is that we shouldn't overreact with it, everything must be in moderation. Wouldn't that make life dull if technology does everything for us? I understand what you mean but think at negatives aswell not just positives.

  Last edited by:  Radu Maican (Asgardian)  on Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 07:47 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 15:37 UTC

Hi Kronos,

Maybe it's me but I don't believe that a life where I am not forced into working in a field I don't enjoy is dull. I would have opportunity to learn and explore things I am passionate about. How is that dull? Most people will agree that there's never enough time in the day to do the things You want to do because your day is consumed with the things you have to do.

If you think about it, would things not advance faster if people had nothing better to do than explore, learn, experiment etc? Would music not be sweeter if musicians weren't working double split shifts waiting tables? Would scholars not have more time to develop new teaching programs if they're not dealing with mundane taste that can easily be done by a computer?

Here's my example. I have never had money. For many reasons, some of fault of my own and some of life circumstance, I could not afford to go to college or university and did not qualify for assistance. I could not bare to work in a factory as I always felt that I had a lot to contribute and did not want a completely mundane job so I worked in the service industry and eventually because a very well established fine dining chef. Despite the fact that I was good at it, I still felt that I could do more. By this time I had children and again could not afford to leave my job to peruse my other areas of interest. One day, I was tired of financial reasons stopping me from learning more about my areas of interest so I started sneaking into classes at Carleton University. Now I'm not saying this was an occasional thing where I hid in the back. I actually became one of the most engaged students in a class I didn't belong to but with over 200 students in the classroom, no one was ever the wiser, at least until I showed up for the psychology exam. My instructor did not have my name on the list but remembered me from class participation so he assumed it was mistake and allowed me to write the exam. When marks came back, it was no surprise that I couldn't find my Mark as I was not in the system so I approached my instructor to ask if he graded my exam. He by this point knew that I was not a registered student but he did in fact hand me my exam back, fully marked with a 92% and proceeded to ask me why I wasn't registered. After explaining that it just wasn't financially in the cards, he told me that I'm throwing my life away by not following my passions but once I explained my situation, he really couldn't offer me a solution.

So what does that have to do with your response? It tells me that if money wasn't an issue and machines took care of the basic requirements of life, I could continue to explore areas of interest rather than throwing my life away doing something a robot could do. By this point in my life, I would have studied areas of physics, psychology, law, politics etc. I would be far from bored as I would be able to take the time to learn from experts and eventually be able to contribute something. I would never be told that I wasn't qualified to have an opinion on a subject that I'm passionate about just because my life situation kept me from achieving my goals. Then rather than only having experience cooking, I would have experience in several areas of study and could contribute far greater to society.

If no one had to work or worry about money, yes there would be lazy people but who cares. If you didn't need to rely on them to do anything then their laziness doesn't affect anyone but themselves. The rest of us would be learning, creating, exploring and ultimately bringing advancement to the human race rather than sorting parts, picking apples or serving food.

Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 16:28 UTC

Another more prime example is the prediction that robotics will take over 50% of the common jobs in the near future. This has countries implementing a universal basic incom. This is happening and not a theory. This too has the potential, if not more potential of breeding laziness because not only can they not find a job but also would not be in a situation where the status quo is to continue learning and follow interests with a group of peers. On top of that, let's look at this situation we are currently implementing. If we project a best case scenario of 50% of jobs lost (although I recognize that new tech creates new different jobs) so a country would need to sustain paying 50% of the population to basically do nothing. Where does this money come from? Increasing taxes to people who are already on basic income? It doesn't take an economist to see the maths aren't in the countries favor. So take it from the wealthy? I'm pretty sure they aren't going to stand for that. Take it from the ever shrinking middle class? That would drain them to the point where they would be better off quitting their job they hate to just take the basic income and not have to work. So what are we left with? A crumbling economy, no middle class, no one wanting to do the few jobs left. No opportunity to learn and advance etc.

My thought may be flawed and require years of refinement but if the alternative is to implement a system that is already crumbling around us, then why wouldn't we choose to design a system that is already a solution to an inevitable problem.

I'm sure by the time Asgardia needs a system in place, this group of visionaries can refine this system to benefit all Asgardians and not just the super wealthy.

Keep in mind all the other benefits of no monetary system. There would no longer be a lower, middle or upper class.

No one would or even could be able to use monetary gain as a motive. Why rob someone if you can just get your own. I can see a connection between money and most non passionate crimes, reducing the strain on the legal system.

Most of the bad in life is motivated by money either directly or indirectly. Corruption stems from money or power, neither of which would exist in this scenario. Environmental depression is triggered by things like financial struggle, longing for more out of life, health problems due to poor diet, lack of free healthcare etc. This depression can lead to passionate crimes such as murder. You won't end crime but you can drastically reduce it by removing the motivation.

Politics is highly influenced by money and it is obvious when you look at the political leaders. Buying their way into elections, back door deals with corporations, personal financial interests. Most candidates are deemed qualified due to their family status, their connections through expensive and elite universities etc. When's the last time a shop keeper was able to run against a successful campaign against a wealthy elite candidate? Not because the shop keeper didn't know his stuff but because their campaign budget can't compare to someone in the elite circles.

I can go on about how it would increase the General health of the population and cut down on the spread of disease, increase in life expectancy, faster advancement in research not waiting on grants, allow more opportunity to startups etc.

As you said, it can't be all positives but it definitely has many of them.

Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 17:16 UTC

Well, you have a point there.

  Last edited by:  Radu Maican (Asgardian)  on Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 17:17 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 17:45 UTC

Hi Tfoster,

Been wanting to reply all day and just got off work lol.

I hardheartedly agree with the intent I just don't agree on the method. Humans as a species need something to trade with i.e money otherwise it would go back to how our ancestors lived. The times of people taking what they want by force should stay in the past in my opinion.

Collectively as a species everyone is not on the same level of consciousness as others, and unfortunately that won't change until every living human has access to a decent education. Maybe in the future our descendants would of learned from our lessons and we will be able to move to a money less society but if you try to force it on those who are not ready the chances of success will reduce substantially as people are often scared of what they do not understand.

I hope my opinions haven't come across as negative as they are not intended to be, perhaps we should look at ways to try prevent greed and corruption being possible whilst using money, In hope we can stop ourselves from ruining our planet. Rather than abandoning something that has both taken us out of our primitive mindset and kept us within it :)

Just to clarify, I think you are right and I have often thought about how we would transcend to a money less society but I think this is ahead of our time, maybe in 100/200 years? but it doesn't mean we can't try and figure out the best foundations for this system to flourish.

Best wishes, Lloyd

  Last edited by:  Lloyd Cox (Asgardian)  on Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 17:47 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 18:18 UTC

I agree with Tfoster, if technology does everything for us, we would simply have more time for ourselves, and how we spend this time really depends on the individual. For example I am a university student, and typically after the finals I have almost a month where I've nothing to do: usually I do nothing productive for a week or so, but then it becomes unbearable and I feel the urge of doing something, last year for example I began studying tensor analysis, even though I will do it "officially" the next year.

Dec 23, 16 / Cap 22, 00 19:00 UTC

Hi Lloyd

Thank you for your contribution and I do not find it negative at all. In fact you raised some great points.

To start off, I agree that the method is likely flawed abd would require a lot of refinement as I am not an expert in economic policy and there's likely many things I have not considered.

I will give my best response to your points.

You bring up that we as a species require the ability to trade our goods and services for some sort of gain. I realize that in today's society, that we are not quite ready for such a system but it's happening anyway. I live in Canada and we are currently testing the universal basic income, as are other countries around the world. This is not just to combat poverty but in preparing us for such a scenario as automation creating mass unemployment. Something needs to be done and so far, that's the best answer. The problem is that it would be such a huge financial burden on the system that no country could sustain it and it is doomed to fail.

With your suggestion that without money, things would go back to the strong taking from the weak, that is exactly what is happening now. The middle class is dissapearing and leaving us again with the strong taking from the weak however now strength is based on financial and political control. Without a monetary system and the ability to start fresh with no class system, would eliminate most of the gain of taking from the weak. If everyone has access to all their needs, what's left to take?

You mentioned that things could change if everyone had access to a good education. By designing an education system that is based on VR , you can now give each citizen access to the best education available at no cost.people would be more educated abd would have the access to any and all fields of study, past the minimum required standard curriculum. This eliminates teachers and rather breeds scholars as citizens can continue their learning without worry of student debt and can dedicate their lives to study, research and advancement in a field of their choosing.

You're 100% right when you say that people are afraid of change and you can't force someone however, I also agree that this is meant as framework to build on for a future generation. I personally do not expect that I will live to see the day we set foot on Asgardia but I am still invested in contributing to it's reality because I'm passionate about it. I've spent many years contemplating the idea of a money less society and how it can work. I've never taken a paycheck for my time invested in this project nor many other projects of passion I have.

This as well as your contributions and those of all Asgardia members is proof In itself that a moneyless society can in fact work. As most people have argued with my theory, they've in fact helped me prove it viable. Our members are from all walks of life from education, science, law, IT and I'm sure many other sectors of expertise. Many have offered their time and efforts to help make Asgardia a reality yet they would otherwise be charging clients for the same work. They are receiving no monetary gain from it yet they choose to do it out of passion.

As you said, we as a species require the satisfaction of some sort of gain for our efforts. What are you currently gaining by contributing? I'm gaining the ability to have a voice in something I'm passionate about. I'm gaining knowledge and experience directly from people who are experts in the things I'm passionate about.

I guess I just see the negatives as another problem to solve but worth doing so.

Dec 25, 16 / Cap 24, 00 23:14 UTC

Hi Tfoster,

Interresting topic, I like that these kind of topics are already popping up on this forum. With the additional replies it is quite a lot of information to read, and most of it matches the thoughts that I also have about the future.

With resources being abundantly available and the technologies to automatically create and produce any item a person would like. There would indeed not be a need for money. But I dont think you can assume the situation of always abundant resources, what would happen if by some error there would be a lack of some materials making some desired producs more scarce. Money is a commonly agreed upon trade resource, the no need for money works fine as long as there is an endless supply of everything. And then there will also be the unique items that might not be possible to be created by AI and easily duplicated, like hand made works of art.

I think in a world where everyone can have everything, the things that not everyone can have will be very desirable, people still want to feel unique and want to have something special.

Also if anyone can just get the products they want to try for a bit, this could also create a very wasteful economy, but lets assume that this is covered with very efficient recycle programs.

Other topics to also keep in mind are: -trade between space ships (unique producs or resources). Some sort of money would be needed so that they could use the profits of the trade in a future trade situation -What will be the purpose of sending people to space if everything is automated (besides the just because factor) People require a lot of resources to maintain, If their pressence doesnt add anything to the ship would it even be worth sending them to space. But this might be more deserving a topic on its own and is not really related to the no money topic.

Overall question from me will be, what would be used for trade, if not money. Since money is the commonly agreed upon trade good so that parties can trade when one party does not have producs the other party would want in return for goods. I advice that you watch a series on the history of paper money from extra credits on youtube (dont know if im allowed to add a link to it,

Dec 26, 16 / Cap 25, 00 02:05 UTC

With all due respect, I still dont see a reason to eliminate monetary policy. One of the reason we keep monetary policy sich as exchange rate is to keep track of inflation in a level that we can control, I see the point that trading cheap material to increase our competitive. But I dont think that have anything do with monetary policy

Dec 26, 16 / Cap 25, 00 18:06 UTC

I'm reminded of a story..

There is an island where there is a village. And on the island the role of the women is to walk up a hill to access water. They then carry the water back to the town. They heat it up use it for the villages needs. A large amount of time is used up by the process. And recently when we visited this village and told them that we could install pipes, pumps, and heaters to move the water and heat it up they where offended and laughed. They said, "what would women do all day then? sit around?"

I support removing the monetary system and implementing a resource based economy with maximum automation.

  Last edited by:  tibor szekely (Asgardian)  on Dec 26, 16 / Cap 25, 00 18:08 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Dec 26, 16 / Cap 25, 00 18:50 UTC


I don't think you've been following all my threads or you would know that I've already addressed the trade question but here it is again.

If we (based on my proposal) are a high technology based, mining and manufacturing economy, we can use space, scientific equipment as our main resource for our GDP

In terms of why send people to space if it's all automated, because the point to a space civilization is to guarantee the future of the human race As our world is not finite. Why make everything autonomous? Why wash your clothes in a machine? Why drive a car? We make things easier so that we can spend more time on things that matter like science and technology, arts and entertainment or spending time with friends and family etc.

Explain what money would be for? What mandatory jobs can you think of that can not be automated? So how do you make money? What do you spend it on?

As for unique products such as art, create your own art. If you want art from someone else, ask for one or trade a service for it.

As for wasteful, you answered yourself for me. All materials can be recycled if the system is in place.

Dec 26, 16 / Cap 25, 00 19:04 UTC

I and my friends try to build an own company. Our area is the robotics, autiomatization. It is not just our job, it is our Hobby. We like to do it but it is expensive, we have to pay a lot for the parts, tools, softwares, etc. And of course we have to pay for our own food, home renting, etc. Maybe our company will be succesful and we can buy evereything what we need but the reality is that we will not that successful, and we cannot use our own potential well. We cannot be enough useful for Asgardia and for the humanity if we are limited by a monetary system.

So yes, I agree we don't need monetary system.

I can work for free, I want to work for free if that garantee the freedoom for me.