Cap 20, 00 / Dec 21, 16 04:40 UTC

Games?  

Hi! Shouldn't games be a category? It is an artform and absolutly a form of culture.

Cap 20, 00 / Dec 21, 16 20:45 UTC

Why should it be a catagory?

Your local government has a "Games" section?

It may well be an artform, it might even be vaguely considered culture. However, it holds little advantages.

For the disadvantages it holds, there's the writing of the games. You could grab some open source but then you've got to worry about auditing the code, for conflicts as much as malware. Being prepared to run any crap on your home computer isn't the same as being prepared to host any malware for ½million+ users to infect themselves with. Then there's maintainence of said code... Each time that cycles it should be re-audited etc..

Much more suitable to conserve resources for things that actually have a use, at least until firmly established.

Cap 20, 00 / Dec 21, 16 20:59 UTC

Games if anything would be a distraction from building the space nation. I my self a gamer and love games... I say we should hold off the games till we have a station in space and have foundations made.

Cap 20, 00 / Dec 21, 16 21:05 UTC

By: EyeR(Asgardian) on 21 December 2016, 8:45 p.m.

Why should it be a catagory?
 
Your local government has a "Games" section?
 
It may well be an artform, it might even be vaguely considered culture. However, it holds little advantages.
 
For the disadvantages it holds, there's the writing of the games. You could grab some open source but then you've got to worry about auditing the code, for conflicts as much as malware. Being prepared to run any crap on your home computer isn't the same as being prepared to host any malware for ½million+ users to infect themselves with. Then there's maintainence of said code... Each time that cycles it should be re-audited etc..
 
Much more suitable to conserve resources for things that actually have a use, at least until firmly established.

I actually totally disagree with this statement and quite agree with Rikard. Games are not "sort of an art form" or "vaguely considered culture".
They ARE art and they ARE culture. They can also even be considered literature to a point.
Whomever played Farcry 3 or Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim knows that. Scientific research even discovered that games have more emotional connection to its player than a book to its reader. You might not consider such for a game like "pong" but it is as much "culture" as ping pong or actual tennis. Games have deep worlds, deep stories, engrossing character and unlike books or movies, they take input and make the one playing them an active part of the world, and gaming technology will just develop more an more.

Specially considering Virtual Reality technology, to dismiss games when they can be considered literally a simulated Virtual Dimension would actually make no sense, specially to Asgardia which must be at the forefront of both scientific research and forward thinking.
Because our "local government" does not posses a game section is not an argument here. That would mean that local governments are behind and becoming more and more archaic which is part of the reason Asgardia must become a reality in the first place.

It should indeed be a category, I second that motion and would be willing to participate as much as possible to me.

  Last edited by:  Gabriel Canongia (Interest Admin, Asgardian)  on Cap 20, 00 / Dec 21, 16 21:05 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Cap 20, 00 / Dec 21, 16 21:17 UTC

By: Top(Asgardian) on 21 December 2016, 8:59 p.m.

 

Games if anything would be a distraction from building the space nation. I my self a gamer and love games... I say we should hold off the games till we have a station in space and have foundations made.

Also have to disagree with this one. Fiction is the birthplace of scientific advancement and science has already proven that being distracted can actually help your brain to process a certain information it has been struggling about in your subconscious, so playing a match of LoL or whatever could just help someone figure out the cure for cancer he had been "almost" getting but was struggling with for a week.

Games can also be used to teach empathy, useful knowledge, demonstrate points of view, build a sense of community and even teamwork, all things extremely needed and helpful to any nation, specially one during the midst of its birth.

Cap 20, 00 / Dec 21, 16 21:24 UTC

@Gabriel Jack

You just through me a curve ball. Thank you for pointing things out that I missed in my own thoughts. I do support games if they have use. Flappy.... NO

Cap 20, 00 / Dec 21, 16 21:47 UTC

Should have explained myself better to begin with, learning that for the future :)

First of all: games is a term including MANY things. Computer/videogames, cardgames, boardgames, roleplaying/larp, dice, gambling and so on.

Different kinds fill different purposes. Be it social, mental training, training reflexes, tactics, relaxation/entertainment, storytelling, challenge ideas, general expression, improving understanding of others, advanced thinking, therapy, education and alot more.

There should not be a question on how it falls under art and culture if one understand why books and movies do so.

Why it should be a category, what could be discussed? -game development (saw some discussing that allready) -uses for a better society (education tool? Training? Therapy? Social relations?) -recomendations for good inspirational ones Just to name a few !

Cap 21, 00 / Dec 22, 16 02:39 UTC

I'd consider myself a "gamer" - I'm probably not as avid as some, but I've some history. I do appreciate a good game.

However, in the right time, at the right place.

The question isn't if such things have value, but what value there is in expending effort in what would already be installed locally if it was of interest to you. Especially as right about now, there's serious things to be pouring effort into.

That doesn't mean I'm not constructing a cislunar base in KSP whilst waiting to snare my first asteroid and park it into cislunar orbit as I write this post, whilst playing FF EXVUIS, freeciv, and trolling about in an old MUD - it just means I'm not wasting Asgardian resources to do so.

Cap 21, 00 / Dec 22, 16 06:22 UTC

By: EyeR on 22 December 2016, 2:39 a.m.

I'd consider myself a "gamer" - I'm probably not as avid as some, but I've some history. I do appreciate a good game.
 
However, in the right time, at the right place.
 
The question isn't if such things have value, but what value there is in expending effort in what would already be installed locally if it was of interest to you. Especially as right about now, there's serious things to be pouring effort into.
 
That doesn't mean I'm not constructing a cislunar base in KSP whilst waiting to snare my first asteroid and park it into cislunar orbit as I write this post, whilst playing FF EXVUIS, freeciv, and trolling about in an old MUD - it just means I'm not wasting Asgardian resources to do so.

@EyeR check the suggestion for an "Official Asgardia Game" I made in a topic at the "Fun" subforum, that might give you an idea on how something as simple as a "game" can have HUGE value towards Asgardias end objective, or its "end game" if you pardon me the pun.
https://asgardia.space/en/forum/forum/fun-128/topic/a-game-for-asgardia-295/?post=670#670

Not only towards building a sense of community, as previously mentioned, and providing the citizens with some sort of "limitless dimension" to serve as "virtual nation's ground" while we do not possess physical communities, games also posses INCREDIBLE capabilities towards teaching.
I mentioned previously in one of the groups, games can be implemented towards teaching the whole nation, from the youngest to the eldest, just about anything way more effectively than any teaching system found currently anywhere on earth.

Besides "games" there is also "gamefication" with serious implications not only to education, but to any medium such as even business or IT with REMARKABLE results. Some examples of Gamefication together with Fun Theory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFeeSANGGlA

And here is Nike's trailer presenting its game "NikeFuel" which you have to move in order to advance (which makes you end up buying new shoes earlier for walking those extra miles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHU7einzO9E

Games are much, much more useful than just towards entertainment and towards building a cool cislunar base in KSP, though even that could be considered learning if you are interested in becoming an engineer one day who will build real world versions of those. Games are a business model, a teaching method, they are dimensions of their own which allow for people from all over the world to be together and interact feeling just as if they are truly present with each other and building actual bonds.
They are also literature, art and can breath a life of their own when they are truly well made.
The world itself is but a huge game that has no HUD, no tutorial and no continues, is it not? So how could you consider games any less than they truly deserve, a huge part that must belong in our future and can become a truly powerful tool towards achieving it.

  Last edited by:  Gabriel Canongia (Interest Admin, Asgardian)  on Cap 21, 00 / Dec 22, 16 06:22 UTC, edited 2 times in total.

Cap 21, 00 / Dec 22, 16 11:56 UTC

As an example of a topic I would like to discuss futher in that category:

To create understanding and comunity I would like to develop an easy form of short (1-2 hours or less) larp/roleplay session we can use, both for new teams that will be working together here at earth and for the new arrivals once we start moving to Asgardia. It's a fun and relaxed way to get to know each other, icebreaker and develops understanding of others in general and for those attending.

The specific session I would like to create would also have a theme relevant to what we are doing, and contain information we will need later on (association to events in the session is helpful for remembering things, so it would be perfect to get in important things like security briefing and such). As an bonus it helps creative thinking and problem solving.

While developing a guide for holding these sessions I would really like input from others, which is why I would like to do it in the forum.

Development of things like this, educational games and much more would need it's own category, so those of us who might have ideas easily can find it :)

And yes, their are many other important projects to be done, but we are over 500 000 people! We have enough people to actually get all of them done, and we really should spread out to work on different aspects!

For example I am good at things relating to psychology, behaviour, artforms, politics and alot of other stuff, but would be useless at engenering. Therefore it's alot better that I focus on what I actually can, not trying to invent machines for the station.

If we use everyones different strengths we will actually have everything we need!

If this isn't your thing, go and be productive in whatever area you actually find you will be most usefull.

Cap 21, 00 / Dec 22, 16 18:45 UTC

I've seen the official Asgardia game topic. I'm about as interested in that as the poll that tops it. Why pretend when you can live it? If you want a HUD that badly - make one. There's open source options available. As for tutorials or continues - look harder.

For "limitless dimension" - You have seen space? it's quite big. And that's just the five dimensions you're able to percieve. A physical presence "up there" is only really a matter of time: patience, learn you must.

Games don't hold the same capacity for education as information. By the time you've familiarised yourself with the games interface, I'll be 30 pages into a technical manual, and getting to the grittier side of things... by the time you're finishing level one, I'll be physically playing with the new principles I've just learned, and augmenting them with the techniques I already knew. I do however agree that Earth's educational systems of just throwing information at children and hoping they will understand what to do with it leaves much to be desired.

"Gamefication" is only significantly effective with regards to those totally unable to form their own thoughts and opinions, the sort of person who wouldn't question a company telling them to do something in order to generate them more revenue. The sort of person that uses FB. I cannot ethically or morally condone preying on the weak of mind, if personal gain is a factor or not. Such things represent a new pinacle of Earth's societies flaws, where deluded phewls are encouraged to not think about what they are doing, for why, and just crack themselves on with someone elses's agenda, paying no heed to the detriment they cause themselves... Like the hoards of spastics that saved FB billions in data input/processing and training their facial recognition algorithyms in order to generate them more revenue. Paying no heed to the future uses of this data. A task should be it's own reward - or it really wasn't worth the bother. You shouldn't do something because you fear reprieve, or covet some reward. That's damaged thinking that will lead to ease of manipulation, and enouraged by Earth's societies purely because they operate almost entirely on manipulation. Continuation of that trend is highly unlikely to result in a situation where people can look around and be happy with what they see.

For the subject of purely educational games, wouldn't it of been better to put in a proposal to the ministry of youth and education? Tho I still think it's undeserved of it's own category, a sub category at best. How many Earth governments can you find with it's own "games" department? I suspect there may be a reason behind this. Simulations IMHO wouldn't count as educational games, games tend to have no specific point beyond the entertainment factor.

Cap 21, 00 / Dec 22, 16 19:18 UTC

@EyeR
Do you have any idea how long it will take for us to actually achieve space? Yes, I have intentions and wishes for that as well, but it might not even happen within our living time, even considering time extensions. I do have patience, but I also have wish and if it is a matter of time, why would you even consider wrong for people to enjoy that time by pre-fulfilling that already? And we do not have the power to "edit" space and its rules, while in a virtual dimension you do.

Yes, games do hold a seriously amazing capacity for education proven by several scientific studies and I know that for I've been researching that for quite a while now. Not only games, but media of every kind, so much so that the current educational system's efficacy do not even start to compare. That is not even a matter for discussion as, I've mentioned, it has been PROVEN by controlled study with double blind, in which participants did not know what they were being tested for, with verified results for both children and adults.

Gamefication is effective to almost any person anywhere if applied correctly, your mistrust for it over a personal opinion actually astounds when there is now a whole field of academical study and even professionals solely dedicated to it. Your view about it is extremely misguided, sorry to say that.
No, a task by itself should not always be its own reward and it has never been so or else we would not be where we are today. The human brain creates habits by feeling rewarded and always did so, even if the reward is but a "congratulations" from family or coworkers. Specially tasks that are worth the bother must be rewarded. Question, in our current society, would anyone clean and maintain the sewer system if they were not paid for it, even though it is needed and "worth the bother" to the point that if it was not done, it could become a safety hazard for a whole city? People do things, even that which is truly needed, not because it is needed but also because there is some reward. Someone might do it once, twice or a few times without a reward, but to keep on doing it and generate "habit" is only done through reward systems in the human brain.

Purely educational games belong both as a Youth and Education as a form of art. Would an educational game teaching about "the history of art" belong to one or the other? What about a game that teaches about "the history of humans and drugs"? Would it be in "Youth and Education"? Even if it is educational, it does not stop being a work of art the same as a movie or a book. Art also not always promotes positive feelings.

It is definitely deserving of its own category. Again, because current governments do not possess is actually their issue, not proof. It just shows how underestimated games are currently and how archaic our governments still are. The reason is because people root themselves in the past instead of actually analyzing things and making future progressions. "Oh, it is just a game, nothing much" they possess the same line of thought that disconsiders games full potential and capability as you are demonstrating, completely underestimating them.

Games ARE simulations, not every game is a simulation but every virtual game is, while every simulation can indeed fall under "game" category, for they were born out of gaming technology. Games have SEVERAL specific points beyond the entertainment from demonstrating a different point of view, creating a new ability or telling a story just like a book would.

  Last edited by:  Gabriel Canongia (Interest Admin, Asgardian)  on Cap 21, 00 / Dec 22, 16 19:20 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Cap 21, 00 / Dec 22, 16 21:58 UTC

It's a lot closer than you think. Unless you're about to die, it's quite possible to occur in your lifetime. With a seed factory placed on ISS by 2025 it's not unrealistic to consider the first longterm mass habitation facilites to be completed by 2055. I don't like dealing with "it might happen" - I prefer to make it happen as experience dictates this is the most reliable path. I don't think that it's wrong people should enjoy themselves, I just think it's wrong to head up a governmental section in dealing with it. It may well be a failing in existing systems to not have one, but really they seemed to do well enough without it this far, and am yet to see any impirical, undeniable, evidence that this would be a more sensible venture to sink effort into right now than, say; establishing clear educational guidelines, ratifying a constitution and other "social policies".
You can edit space. You can't edit it's rules, but you can ignore some of them for a certain amount of time in the right conditions, but that's another story for another day. Ultimately, you've no requirement to edit the physcial rules as you would in a simulation or game, there being plenty of scope for pretty much anything you'd expect in reality else you just need to start thinking a little more cunning - and editing these rules in a simulation/educational game would skew the final perspective reducing the value it could have in a practical sense.

No, gamerfication is only prevelant in those unable to ascertain the long term impact of their actions. Those who are not mindful of their thoughts. I don't mistrust it, I just see how it's being abused and marvel at the simplicity of those who allow such to dictate for them their actions. I don't think that should be encouraged, instead favouring that people decide for themselves what they should or shouldn't do and accept the responsibility of their own action/inaction. Definitely, a task within itself should be it's own reward. Cleaning the sewer ensures sanitary conditions. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realise this. The fact that countless generations have leveraged the more primative facets such as a reward/punishment in order to further their own goals doesn't mean this is the only way to get things done. It's primitive, and in a few thousand years has only entrenched itself deeper as people indoctrinated with such are unable to envision an alternate. Simple concepts like doing things because they need doing, something incredibly common in isolated societies sans currency, becomes unconsiderable, where's the reward? So, to directly answer your posed question, No, In the current society it's very unlikely that most people would do something like clean a sewer purely because it needs doing. The key words being "current society", and "most people". Some are actually capable of considering the consequences of their actions/inactions. These would be the folks that walk about their neighbourhood picking up trash to make it a nicer place to be, or volunteers lending their time to charities, most don't do this to hear a "thankyou" (tho, it is appreciated) they do it "to make a difference". Because it needed doing. The rest are already psychologically damaged by reward/punishment feedback loops to the point where they are unable consider any other options. As it's possible to define when currency became, it's possible to define a time before it existed - and you honestly think that for a few thousand years people just sat around and stared at rocks? No, they did things. Because they needed doing, or because they wanted to do them. Things got to how they are now because people didn't bother to question the long term effects of their actions, people don't tend to summit K2 for profit, and you ask of them why they endured the hardships involved with climbing Everest they generally respond along the lines of "because it's there." or "I just wanted to do it." -=- Let me know when you find one that replies "because I thought there would be a reward when I got to the top". You can find acedemic studies and "professionals" in most subjects, and some of them utterly rediculous so that within itself proves nothing, even less until they have been peer reviewed and certainly doesn't disprove that it's more psychologically healthy to understand what you're doing, and why - and just get on with it - as opposed to being tricked, coerced, or manipulated into it at the behest of another. Any "habit" you form should be one you've consciously formed for the practical benefits - otherwise it's detriment that will almost assuredly serve someone else's needs more than or at the cost of your own.

I'm not particularly interested in discussing merits of one form of classification over another - it's a source of endless argument as it overlaps many boundaries, heavily treading into the realms of personal opinion. That said, there's no reason it can't exist as a section in multiple places that all link to the same place...

I can see value as an educational tool, in some cases, but still maintain that it's not really the sort of thing that would require it's own catagory - but could readily exist as sub-catagory of one or more existing facets.

Also, you may need to address your "research skills" if you've come away with the impression that simulations are spawned from gaming technology. You might have that just slightly backwards. I could accept scientific technology, or possibly military technology - even industrial technology - computers was used for "serious things" a long time before games, The first predictive modelling programs could possibly be considered simulations. Even today, most simulations don't have any GUI output at all, instead spawning masses of data(which could be used to render graphical models in some cases, but initially tech was too simple for, at some point there wasn't even a screen) and technically simulations existed before digital technology....

  Updated  on Cap 22, 00 / Dec 23, 16 01:55 UTC, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: typo

Cap 22, 00 / Dec 23, 16 15:25 UTC

@EyeR
You say 2025 to 2055 as if that was anyway near "close" and considering I live in Rio de Janeiro and hear gunfighting almost every month, sometimes more than twice in a single week and have been robbed at gunpoint or with a knife a few times already, dying of old age is the least of my worries in the meantime.
I also prefer to work to make it happen, but to make it happen there must also be a lot of interest by a lot of people and games, besides all their uses you are completely disregarded which, as I mentioned, have been proven, can indeed be used exactly for that as well.

Your distrust of gamefication is astounding for you are talking about it as something bad for it has been used badly? So nuclear generators are inherently evil because nuclear bombs exist and fusion is the utmost evil because of super novas? You might believe that "a task within itself should be it's own reward" but it is a "should" for you and "unfortunately" it is not. Each person will always think differently and no matter how much something is needed, there is always the old human habit of "procrastination" no matter how much someone might know how very much needed something is. Gamerfication doesn't impact only those unable to ascertain the long term. It impacts anyone who allows it to as well or anyone which wishes to employ it. I'm saying that by experience for I have a real good notion of the impact of every single one of my actions, no matter how small, in the long term, and I use a free app called "LifeRPG" which is basically a gamefication of life which helps me a lot in keeping track of what I have to do, finding extra motivation through my gaming habits, avoiding procrastination and was even a powerful tool in helping me overcome depression.
Volunteers lending their time to charities do indeed search for a gratification. Not from others, but from themselves. If they do something for the feeling of accomplishment, that in itself is a reward they are giving themselves and the "treat" they use as motivation to fulfill the task at hand. It would be no different if they had a "vow" to themselves to buy a chocolate cake after as a reason to volunteer and there are those who do so for hearing a "thank you" and would feel their day ruined if they helped and no one was grateful. There are people of very different types.
People climb mountains for the exercise, the view, the experience and the feeling of accomplishment. All of those are self-rewards but rewards none-the-less.
The research I've told about have all been peer-reviewed as far as I know of, your distrust means nothing over that. It doesn't make the researches even less trust-worthy. Gamefication doesn't mean you will not "understand what you are doing and why", it means you will have a gamefied system to help you understand and feel better motivated. You not only distrust it, you don't even understand it. "being tricked, coerced, or manipulated"? People do that to themselves and each other every single day at all times and have always done so in order to fulfill things that need to be done.
Your "shoulds" are only that. "SHOULD". Your idea of a "perfect ideal" and not even close to "truth" or "possibility". The fact that you use "should" is already prrof that you subconsciously already know that.

You can see value in one way because that is the only way you see worth to your endeavours but you don't understand it even closely enough to even have a well devised argument over it, resourcing to "should's" "must" and mistrust.

If you are talking about "computer simulations", maybe that could be right, but I'm talking "simulation" and "games" have existed way before computers and have always been used as "simulations" to teach real world situations. Animals simulate fights by "playing" a "fighting game" with their siblings. Games exist in nature way before we Homo-Sapiens have come to existence, we just created more complex games and better defined what a "simulation" is and created different kinds of it, but yeah, simulations derived from games since animals played with each other to simulate combat. I guess its your research and logic skills that might need some checking.

  Last edited by:  Gabriel Canongia (Interest Admin, Asgardian)  on Cap 22, 00 / Dec 23, 16 15:25 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Cap 24, 00 / Dec 25, 16 00:33 UTC

On the scale of time, that's not far away indeed. I'm aware a lot can happen between now and then - there's not a lot I can be doing about that, right now.

Almost every use I've occured of "gamerfication" is abused in one way or another - a few smaller projects aside - or simply postitively reinforces bad habits in the name of attempting to establish good habits. Take for example LifeRPG, I'm willing to accept that has uses, for some people - and I'm not suggesting that this is definitely malware as I couldn't be bothered with more than a casual glance at the project, and it is open source, but have you read the data collection policies? I didn't notice any published.There's a reason it'll be accessing the network, and commonly it's for more that updates. You actually observed the traffic that tunnels back? Interesting it wants to access the vibromotor, as it's possible to use that as a stealth listening device - Such things can be powerful tools, but not in any particular way that would benefit you. The most powerful tool however is your mind, and that doesn't require additional third party software to operate.

The people who would volunteer for the sake of gratification do so for the wrong reasons and thusly it's inevitable that the days they don't hear "thank-you" will bother them. People doing it for the right reasons would care less. It's also inevitable that by adressing an internal deficit with external stimulation they will never solve the root cause of the issue and continually cause themselves more harm seeking to fill the percieved void. Like any other junkie chasing a fix. That needs treating, not encouraging. The lab rats given a button to feed them opium soaked feed on demand were happy rats - but were they healthy?

You should be able to gain sufficient motivation from the task itself, or at least the outcome of. If you are unable and assuming there is genuine merit to the task then there's likely another issue that would more prominently require addressing and I consider it's highly unlikely that a game would be productive in adressing that - unless that's purely a minor distractional escapism/break - and that's just "mild entertainment" IMHO.

Again, games - and indeed all forms of entertainment - have a purpose, and they also have a place. I just don't happen to think this place is a governmental department. In the case of educational software, I can see a legitimate facet for sub catagories in the educational ministry. Ones aimed at otherwise self improvement could potentialy nest into Science/Psychological Sciences. etc. The magical thing about storing individual posts in a DB, then linking the threads together from them, as opposed to actual individual pages, is it's possible for multiple sub-sections to be collated together(as well as saving a lot of space) - and that I could accept as possibly warrenting it's own catagory on the forum, at least. But first it'd make sense to establish a games sub-catagory in all applicable places - then having a collection of somehtings to link into one locaiton you can do so. For "games" to be productive in any way beyond pure entertainment then there's likely to be heavy crossover with input and questions to the relevant ministry from the game's developers, and such would simply be part of their domain.

Again, I don't distrust gamerfication, I simply observe it's prominence for abuse and can also see a better path. People may trick and manipulate themselves regularly, but is that actually clever? Especially when it's possible to achieve the same ends without the trickery in almost every legitimate, non-devious case. All that results is a condition wherin people are unable to do things without constant external stimulous and or feedback. I intentionally select "should" for the recognition of that which is actuality isn't entirely optimum. There are ways and means of correcting this, but it's not by reinforcing patterns that lead to this path.

With the specification "game technology" my mind did instantly jump to computer games, as opposed to dice, cards, go etc. The keyword, ofc, being technology and simulating anything via cards and dice isn't going to warrent itself as reliable parody to reality in the larger number of cases.