Dec 28, 16 02:54 UTC

Re: Quick Thought to help bring in money for Asgardia  

"Job" was intended in the context of employment. It might of even been used in that context during the extent of the paragraph. Automation is increasing, but I don't see it evolving to the point of entirely rendering manual procedure obsolete. Almost, but not entirely. There are some tasks humans are naturally better suited to. Technically, staring at a wall is still doing something, very astute. Have you considered applying to MENSA? I was thinking of something a little more proactive however. And there is plenty of it to be done. All it would take in such a senario is the inclination. The precise phrasing used in "no job, no money, and nothing to do" is not mine. If you did not gather by the tone of the paragraph, I do not believe that condition to be possible, in such a senario.

Indeed, having all you need would indeed remove the requirements for fiction based resources that one could intentionally impose scarcity upon in order to generate perceived value. That was kind of a key point, reiterated multiple times across multiple posts. I thought that was quite clear. Maybe I should of used a larger font?

I'm aware of the research involved with UBI - This could be why I had specifically mentioned it as a viable solution to the "mass job loss". I also agree it's unlikely that UBI would be "squandered", but responsibility isn't something humans are entirely famous for, and there's always one... hence: " The only possible way this should insufficient enough is if they are irresponsible with it ". Attempting to rob me at a convenience store is an amusing concept. It's assuredly not going to end the way it's predicted. Just because I can compose an eloquent sentence and have been educated don't let that deceive you into thinking I fail to contain an enhanced capacity for violence. I know the streets well, and can assure you I've already dealt with worse. Lets pretend by "you" that you didn't mean me specifically. Let us further pretend that the intended victim is a muppet that would actually conform, and the attempt is successful. By the time Asgardia is actually able to support a population(before this, they should be the responsibility of the nation in which they currently reside) - a few experimental projects aside - then this will be in the stars. Most likely a (collection of) station(s) and ship(s). It's not as if they will have anywhere to run, or hide. There will be consequences(yet undecided, but I believe there will be a part of the legal system to deal with such. AFAIK this is trending towards an educational response). Between these consequences, and understanding the failure to manage their resources effectively has lead to them being placed into a position wherin they are required to resort to crime to survive - especially in such a society - it might encourage them to make a better attempt with next months funds. This is not a problem I would predict to be prevalent.

Ty for the SBE explaination, tho Lloyd defined it as "service based" I personally would subscribe more readily to the sharing based model. On the subject of Lloyd, he does seem overly sensitive. Mayhaps it's time he changed his tampon. I'm unable to define anything "hostile" within my content. The closest I can surmise is my distaste for the principles that have lead to the unsavoury conditions arising in the first place have been misinterpreted as distaste for him, or his ideas. I'm unable to ascertain what he claims I've "twisted" or "implied". I would suggest that this stems from a misunderstanding of the systems of topic.

I do make more than reasonable attempts to make myself clear. I cannot be held responsible for a failure in understanding from a third party.

On the subject of failure in understanding, many interpret my instinct to seek flaws to be detrimental. It's my systems analyst side shining through. If you want something to succeed, you must first identify and resolve points of failure. Then you can build something that works. OOTB. In efforts to try and remain constructive, where possible I attempt to offer viable alternates and or education on why I believe it to be unwise. I see there's little more I can do, and that does far less damage than saying nothing.

  Updated  on Dec 28, 16 03:09 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: typo

Dec 28, 16 03:18 UTC

@EyeR (or anyone who understand) could spare some guindances? (Studing for economy here,some question s that i need certain answers) Haha, well i am seeing a lot of topics about we jump from the actual stardart economy of the world(money) to other things (my opinion its a good day of advance) ,but anyone already have questioned about the need of money for thes firsts phases of our nation? Like we need material and resources and whe (at moment) does not have any way to explore resources (mine asteroids/moon? To soon for us),well we could do the thing about bitcoins but ...... If we do that we could make theirs prices grow at disastrous rate ,since the thing about bitcoins at the momento is that its evolving and the people are begining to use it, if we a Nation say that it will be or coin , puff theres will be a search for this coin that will be disastrous to our Economy (that will be weak at the moment)........i have thinking and reading about this and tjink that we need to be cautios since we need to buy our thing to do asgardia (steel,eletronics for the Rockets and spaceship) and we need REAL money to this ....... Well i could be extremely wrong (pray for this) , if the lead ADM ,Igor or we asgardians do not make real decisions about our economy , we will be in great problems (sorry for the big text by the way)

  Last edited by:  Humberto Guttau (Asgardian)  on Dec 28, 16 03:32 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Dec 28, 16 04:36 UTC

For certain, a trend away from currency isn't going to be rapid. The closest I can engineer such would be about 2075 or so, if we started now. There's been no "hard math" employed in this assessment, It's more a leap of faith that we are numerous enough with a diverse enough skills portfolio to pull it off combined with my assessment on the exponential growth of seed factories.

Somewhere else(https://asgardia.space/en/forum/forum/resource-acquisition-and-management-86/topic/infinite-resources-579/) I've outlined a loose roadmap on how this can be made to happen. In order to get this off the floor(pun intended) I proposed crowdsourcing, but ofc whatever is most suitable should be utilised. Preferably that which doesn't impact upon citizens. Even with citizens brunting the cost themselves, and assuming an incredibly low turnout of 10% would be prepared to commit to such a plan, then should possible to achieve for less than $140USD/head. With nationwide contribution it would be significantly less required per head. About $14USD. Neither of these numbers strike me as impossible, but I know which I prefer.

Generating bitcoin isn't a poor idea within itself, one point you haven't considered is the complexity increase with each sucessfully mined coin. This has already raised the processing power required for mining a coin to above that of the common household electrical prices it requires to run the machines. Even using high end GPU's for precalc. Professional mining rigs are typically custom ASIC's which have much lower power requirements, and do more with less as they are specifically built for mining coin. They are also entire datacenters strong - meaning they are likely to mine the same coin faster. However, this may be made to be "profitable" if we was to utilise spare CPU/GPU cycles of users machines whilst they are being powered anyway. By only harvesting otherwise unused cycles it shouldn't impact user's use of the machines. Yes, bitcoin is highly volitile, in part due to the age of the currency. But the price hike through sucessfully mined coins is likely to increase the value of already mined coins, assuming they are not spent as they are generated. Conversely, the price could suddenly and massively drop as it has several times over the past few years.

Caution is certainly advised. However, working together, I feel there's little we are unable to achieve. Our economy isn't likely to become a significant problem in the near future as we technically have incredibly little infrastruture and other costs about now. This obviously will change over time, but so will the state of our economy. To suppliment the various businesses and initatives that will form, citizens could potentially deploy amongst them a network of ground based seed factories. As these grow to the point of self-replication, kits to construct another seed factory could be donated to the lesser fortunate Asgardians. Being networked, goods required for trade could be produced at the closest sensible seed factory and prevent a situation where everyone ends up producing the same things. I'm not aware of a defacto open source design for a seed factory - but I will be attempting one in 2017, hopefully, and this will ofc be open sourced. Folks interested in the seed factory concept can find more information: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Seed_Factories. In order I can construct such at minimal cost, I shall begin by taking a printer apart and using the parts to make a simple 2D CNC, I also plan on obtaining a 3D printer. This would not represent a seed factory in itself, but it would begin the process of manufacturing facilities and give rise to making it into a seed factory.

  Updated  on Dec 28, 16 05:00 UTC, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: typo, additional data, correcting link

Dec 28, 16 22:48 UTC

EyeR,

I read your most recent post and had to laugh at myself for a minute. The seed factory idea is a wonderful one in my opinion, an idea I had actually been working on myself, but more from a personal business stand point. The self replication AND self expansion possibilities become almost endless with the right CNC routers and 3D printers, allowing for continual growth with the only limitation being on the available raw resources for said machines (in regards to cost of materials vs. profits from sales). I have actually been working with a CAD program on my computer recently to refamiliarize myself with the controls and limits of what it can and can't do, granted I'm only using a $200 TurboCAD software as opposed to the higher end $1000-$5000 programs.

Dec 29, 16 06:39 UTC

I believe as a Space Nation, well have some limitations in the space, like growing plants or producing meat or same matters. so, trading such mentioned products are out of the list & it wont make that profit for us because even if we succeed on doing such a thing, itll cost so much expenses & exporting them -no matter how high quality it has- will cost more expenses for transporting & etc but we have many other opportunities. In the future, when us are in our home space, i believe we might invest on Earth companies or even export our experiences like our inventions which theyll need or other scientific matters that are not in the earth. if we chose to live in a planet like Lunar or even mars, there is other trading opportunities such as mining, astrology, chemistry & many more. I would love to discuss about this matter since im working as a Commercial Expert in an international company for 5years, love to learn more & help as much as i could. ~Long Live Galaxy~

Dec 30, 16 02:31 UTC

Attacked correctly, there are no limits. Only infinite resources.

eventually it will be produced at 0 cost. Initially it will be next to zero - having to solve many of the "resource problems" before we can actually construct anything - lifting it from the planet is rediculous on many fronts. Cost in exporting will be nothing. Due to orbital proximity, drop-pods with descent arrest technology could be literally delivered to the doorstep(more likely, designated dropzones). Transport can be pretty much free too by using centrafugal launchers. You also fail to take into account spiraling populations, climate change reducing crop harvests - this won't just impact "human food" but for that of cattle farms etc - Food is a serious comodity. And there will be demand, as the Earth steadily gains more of an issue reconciling the need to develop on land for housing etc and the need to use land for farming. We will need to develop the capacity to produce food in order we may sustain ourselves, continually taking the finite resources from Earth is unsutainable. It'd make sense to obtain this capacity before we actually require it, so it's there when we do - and rather than waste it, trade it.

Dec 30, 16 14:39 UTC

Thanks BohZao Looks like I was quite wrong on the SBE term :) , thanks for pointing it out. I've been loosely involved with the basic income movement here and am still learning about economics. I'm interested to see where things lead in this regard here. Nice to meet you by the way. happy new year :)

Dec 30, 16 15:54 UTC

If we are with 500k, if every one bought a ROOM magazine and an Asgardia t-shirt, that would already be something.

Grtz, Dirk.

Dec 30, 16 15:57 UTC

Shanewatt my pleasure to help o/

Well nice to meet you to ,lets together make the best possible asgardia, ah happy new year btw \o/

Dec 30, 16 20:59 UTC

Rather than buy a cheap T-shirt, I'd personally rather just put the same money directly into the appropriate project. Seems to me that would be far more efficient.

Jan 6, 17 16:29 UTC

well @EyeR i agree with you , but not everyone is gonna donate, we can use the T-shirts and alike to expand our way to fund our projects , we can sell then for everyone and the money (at least part of it) could be used to our funding

Jun 27, 01 / Jun 16, 17 04:08 UTC

Piggy backing off of anime, can cosplay also be a firm of expression? I also caught glimpses of steampunk, futuristic, and sci-fi being mentioned and I just want to say it all sounds great! Also, more on cosplay, I am currently a business major, specifically, I'm majoring in Entreprenuership, and I think a Cosplay Café business will be great! I am still brainstorming the concept, but if I could use Asgardia as a concept and base the café off of it, all the while promoting Asgardian's ever growing culture, recruit more citizens, and use the Asgardian currency, the conversion to Solar, to help the Asgardian economy grow, I'd be very much ablidged to do so! I think I will further discuss cosplay cafés in a new discussion forum I will compose titled Cosplay Café, so if you're interested, please keep a lookout! And I believe I can complete the above mentioned task if my burden was lightened, I am running as a candidate, and I believe if I were to become a leader, scholarships and grants would motivate me to achieve my dream of the above aforementioned goals for Asgardia! So, I invite you all to please invite your friends, family, and followers and vote for me! As a leader, I will promise to do my absolute best to promote the best interests of every Asgardian to make a better Asgardia!!!

Asg 20, 01 / Jul 7, 17 06:44 UTC

yeah i have few ideas to generate revenue for asgardia......

1) we can start our own publication house on asgardia name to write novels etc ..... 2) apart from selling merchandising we can create our own handicraft house which we make unique staff........

regards

kashif shaikh

Dec 9, 01 / Dec 11, 17 04:43 UTC

There are a few topics that seem to have all gotten combined into this thread. In response to the original topic of Asgardians using their different skill sets to help Asgardia develop some initial operating funds, one way that individuals could do this without the need for a complicated project or company is for those with valuable talents to list them on sites like Fiverr.com and then donate the proceeds to Asgardia. They may not make much, but anything is better than nothing and if enough people do this, it could turn into a valuable boost to Asgardia.

In terms of what business Asgardia will be in once it is built, I think there are a couple answers. One that may be largely overlooked is tourism. For the same reason that many people find this project exciting, many people will want to visit Asgardia. If Asgardia makes itself a welcoming environment for tourists, it could become a major tourist destination even if other space nations eventually form. To that end, people conducting local tours, engaging in hospitality industries, hosting airbnb guests, and so forth would be logical precursors to this. Scientific and technological developments would also be an inevitable industry given both the unique opportunities provided by being in space and the overall innovative culture, as would any service that can be performed remotely given that this requires very little space on the station and "transportation" costs of finished goods are almost zero. Producing products that can only be produced in microgravity, or just creating unique products in general would also be a likely industry to start, especially since exporting materials would probably be relatively cheap (as those who carry product to the station would want to fill the space on the return flight, providing a plentiful supply of export cargo space).

In terms of the third topic that seems to have popped up on this thread, I think a universal basic income is a good idea, both to combat job loss from automation and to free people to follow pursuits that are a greater benefit to society instead of just taking any job they can to pay rent. People would be free to take the same sort of jobs (as they would be needed) to supplement their basic income and improve their standard of living and would be naturally motivated to do so if it doesn't take away from the benefits they are already receiving, but the most basic needs would be taken care of. As far as a higher tax on the wealthy, I am totally in favor of that, but it can not be a 100% tax after a certain point. That motivates people to stop innovating and stop growing once they hit that point. Having an increasingly large percentage taken so that they get less and less of each dollar the farther they go is fine, but there should always be some benefit for continuing to increase production. Having no direct benefit from one's production is ultimately what will cause laziness. If starting a new business or project will get me absolutely nothing, and require my time, effort, and money to get started, then why would I do it? On the other hand, if it does get me something but benefits the overall society even more, than I get a return on my time and money plus I get to feel good about how much I helping society, than I am sufficiently motivated to take a chance and try that new idea. Additionally, I think that automation should itself be taxed to help pay for the universal basic income. As automation begins to take over jobs, having a way for that automation to directly benefit those who are losing their jobs (or the general populous) as opposed to only benefiting the owners of it will be necessary. That tax should never be as much as the wages that would be paid to humans, as that would discourage automation (and automation is good so long as it doesn't create poverty because it increases GDP). Ultimately the goal of any economic system is to encourage the highest level of production possible without leaving anyone in poverty. Any economic ideas need to pass through those two tests: Does this help prevent poverty or at least not increase poverty? Does this encourage maximum production? (Note that while technically production is measured in money earned by both tangible and intangible goods produced, an enlightened society such as the one we seek to create might consider non-profitable production to be valuable to and might need to develop an economic system that encourages activities which don't earn money as well).


Given that this thread seems to have taken on quite a few topics, it might be beneficial to either split it up or lock it and create a few new threads linking back to this thread so that each topic can continue in its own thread. I would love to see a thread dedicated to the original topic as it seems to me that it is of great importance for the early success of Asgardia.