Jun 19, 17 / Leo 02, 01 12:58 UTC

Brief comment about religion in the draft constitution  

I agree with many here that there are far too many flaws to support the constitution, at least the draft I was able to download on 02 Asgard 001 (10 July 2017).  First and foremost is, of course, the very direct constitutional route to a dictatorship.  However, there's an almost equally worrying item in Chapter 1, bullet 11.

Equality and unity of all people is a supreme value of Asgardia (good thing), but then the constitution accepts all religions as valid and practicable.  Religious dogma, by it's very nature as implemented by human beings, inevitably leads to disunity, and inevitably causes those who believe a different dogma to be treated in all respects as non-equals.  Religious dogma is hence in direct contravention to the supreme values, and has no place in our space nation.


Jun 22, 17 / Leo 05, 01 05:09 UTC

I agree with @ahowe42. How does your religion help you survive in Space?

Jun 22, 17 / Leo 05, 01 07:47 UTC

Must follow your own ways of the force! Logic is not the way. Let there be the will of the force in Space and throughout the Universe!

Jun 27, 17 / Leo 10, 01 07:11 UTC

@Ann - I think you missed the point. 

I know for a fact, from talking directly to the founders/admin, that the idea is you can practice anything you like in your own mind and home but you cannot proselytise it anywhere in Asgardia. That means you cannot be a "street minister" in the sense that you appear to mean. 

What @ahowe42 is pointing out is the apparent dichotomy in the wording of the paragraph in the constitution.  He wasn't asking for a debate on whether or not religion is good or bad. He was pointing to the fact that the intent of what is wanted is not shown properly in the wording. I'm not being rude or criticising your beliefs in this post, however by it's very nature the wording leads people to not understand the intended meaning and to display a confrontational and proselytising approach (which you presented) when someone states a fact concerning the usage of religion as a weapon against other people opinions and beliefs.

You cannot deny that there are people (most likely even within your own organisation and beliefs) who present themselves as being right and better than others due to their beliefs and who represent other people's beliefs as incorrect, subversive and wrong. It is this problem of intolerance, which is enacted predominantly by religious organisations and peoples throughout human history, which @ahowe42 is pointing out as causing an apparent dichotomy in the wording. Also, it is the confrontational approach which does not allow for people who do not have a religious belief that the founders of Asgardia are trying to eliminate.

You may have a belief in a certain religion but you cannot force it on others, even by declaration, on the forums.  Besides it is your PERSONAL and PRIVATE belief so it should be kept personal and private.  If you wish to enter into a debate then I'm happy to point you in the direction of the letters written by Paul concerning how to practice your beliefs. I can tell you from years of study of those letters that they say quite the opposite of going out and proselytising or forcing our beliefs on others by declarations of our own virtue. However I will not enter a debate on the forum.

Jun 28, 17 / Leo 11, 01 11:52 UTC

Actually, the Constitution also violates itself there as well, as it makes the freedom of speech inviolate (or, at least, it did in one version. I am uncertain if the latest version still has that wording). If speech is inviolate, authorities cannot do anything that may suppress it, even if the speech may violate other laws. They could arrest the person once the laws are violated, but they could not impede their speech under that particular wording. Given there are no prisons, the person who violates such laws would not be prevented from going back out and continuing.


Jun 28, 17 / Leo 11, 01 12:51 UTC

As a side comment, I only want to point out that the Constitutional draft presented to be voted at 18 june contained (chapter 1, art. 11) the following sentence:

11. Asgardia is a country of free spirit, science and internationalism. But every Asgardian can freely practice any religion on Earth.

which, if English counts, means you can't pratice any religion on Asgardia (intended as "space ark" or "colony" or "into the community").
Later, the Constitutional draft was silently amended in the following way:

11. Asgardia is a nation of free spirit, science, internationalism. Every Asgardian can freely practice any religion of Earth in Asgardia.

which means a completely different thing.

Mine is just a side comment as, being agnostic, I'm not interested in the whole "religious" thing (I can say I'm just happy, for who follows one, about the second writing), only to point @RebekahBerg attention to one of the dozens modifications: one can say "ah... just an 'of' instead of an 'on', who cares?" but, completely reversing the meaning, it should be the same as I wrote a contract with the sentence "you're going to earn 1 billion from me" then, while (after) you was eagerly signing the contract, I changed it which now says "you're going to give 1 billion to me" (don't laugh: it's exactly what happened to the so-called-Constitutional draft since 13 june forward).

  Last edited by:  Luca Coianiz (Asgardian)  on Jun 28, 17 / Leo 11, 01 12:53 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: grammar

Jun 28, 17 / Leo 11, 01 13:19 UTC

Personally speaking, Jason, try avoiding to fall everywhere and, please, give a billion to me. ;-)))
(sorry you're still thinking asgardians are so naive to accept the bs you're try selling us, even if not surprisingly at all)

  Last edited by:  Luca Coianiz (Asgardian)  on Jun 28, 17 / Leo 11, 01 13:19 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Jun 28, 17 / Leo 11, 01 14:25 UTC

Actually I think the whole meaning is that, you can have your religion, believe it in but can't push it on others or use it to harm others. Also, it means that if someone believes in religion then we need to respect that as well even if we do not believe or push our non belief on them or harm them because we do not believe.

Respect and understanding.

Jun 28, 17 / Leo 11, 01 14:53 UTC

I beg your pardon but the meaning of both DoU's sentences was really clear to me.
As usual, you (intentionally) fail to notice that short sentence: "to point @RebekahBerg attention to one of the dozens modifications", so I'm taking the liberty to bold/underline it: more clear now?
You asked for evidences, I gave you them. No need to get into religions' affairs.

Thanks for your understanding.

Still noticing that, when there is to add void comments or to point out one's failure, you officials/admins/mods answer nearly in realtime. Pity is not the same when we ask more important things.

Jun 28, 17 / Leo 11, 01 15:44 UTC

@Elwe Thor this topic is not for discussion of that issue. My response is to the OP and the topic of the thread in order to participate in the discussion of this topic.

Jun 28, 17 / Leo 11, 01 15:55 UTC

It's ok, so I've to assume that you, to the official side, took note of the "variation".
Your personal partecipation to the thread is obviously a right I also hoped (not only by you but by all admins/mods) since time, stating it's a personal opinion and not official one (or it may confuse the users, here).

@Jason Rainbow
I can see how you're nearly-realtime answering, even when no answer is need (as now): part of my post was, as explicitly requested, to signal a difference into the Constitutional draft. As Rebekah took note of it, we can stop going OT here.

Jul 1, 17 / Leo 14, 01 10:32 UTC

Please read and sign my petition. It directly seeks to promote more citizen participation in government.


Jul 29, 17 / Vir 14, 01 19:42 UTC

Religious believes are a very private thing and should remain that Way. 

In no Way missionary activity should be supported by The state and no religious values should be an issue to It. 

  Last edited by:  Guido Broich (Asgardian)  on Jul 29, 17 / Vir 14, 01 19:43 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time