Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 22:55 UTC

Re: Discussion of the Declaration of Unity  

I like this version of it but I think that, that last point needs to be clarified, I'm pretty sure I know what it's meant to read as but I see a lot of people very confused about it

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 23:06 UTC

@zouzou - I think you are completely correct about brevity and keeping the statements as broad principles of belief and objectives.

just a thought on your point 2.
You are correct that the good Doctor mentioned that on video.
I understand the intent of the Doctor's statement in the video (and yours) was to ensure the future of humankind on earth by creating protection options and methodologies, however stating that in a short form point manner could make it seem like a self appointed policing effort. It might be unfavourable to recognition by other international organisations if they thought Asgardia was setting itself up as an international force policing from space.
It could be looked on as interference in other's affairs.

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 23:18 UTC

and a point for translate all decret on all language of asgardian peoples?

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 23:38 UTC

I am glad to see that many points from the community's constitution suggestions have been included into the Declaration. The people and the people's will have been heard, and the Declaration reflects that. Nothing concerns me more than the people's will. Good move!

  Last edited by:  John Skieswanne (Asgardian)  on Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 23:40 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times

Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 00:30 UTC

I like what I see so far.

Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 02:55 UTC

Hello fellow Asgardians,

As a lawyer, I agree with almost all concerns raised by @bigred in previous posts. We need to reword it. Each word will have a profound meaning and many implications, let’s remember that it will be read and interpreted by politicians, diplomatics, lawyers, militaries, etc all over the World. @bigred has made a fantastic work of rewording and giving options. I have read all the previous posts, tried to bring together all the concerns, and I will also choose my personal options.

I begin:

We, the free people of the first in the history of existing humanity Space country ASGARDIA, based on the birthright of Man in the universe, adopt this DECLARATION

My favorite option:

"We, the people of the space nation Asgardia, freely declare the following to be true and core principles of our society and adopt them as our own":

1º. Asgardia is a free and unified space state.

My rewording:

"Asgardia is a free and sovereign space nation, based on the founding principles of Humankind Unity, Democracy, Liberty, Equality before Law, Justice and Peace and Neutrality in all Earth states affairs".

2º. the objectives of Asgardia are to: • ensure peace in space • ensure the protection of planet Earth and the entire humankind from outer space threats; • ensure equal opportunities in space for all Asgardians living on Earth, regardless of geographic, financial, technological and other features of the countries of their earthly citizenship.

My option:

"the main objectives of Asgardia are to: a) Develop a prosperous space nation. b) Ensure peaceful relationships in Space among all intelligent living forms. c) Ensure the protection of planet Earth and humankind from threats from Space d) Ensure equal opportunities in Space for all Asgardians living on Earth, without any discrimination of any kind".

3º. Any citizen of Earth can become a citizen of Asgardia, if he concurs with this Declaration, accepts the Future Constitution and legislation of Asgardia.

Rewording:

"Any person can become a citizen of Asgardia according to legal procedures in case they concur with and promise allegiance to the Asgardian Declaration of Unity, Constitution and legislation".

4º. All citizens of Asgardia are equal, regardless of their country of origin, residence, citizenship, race, nation, gender, language, or financial standing.

I agree with @bigred, let’s keep it simple:

"All citizens of Asgardia are equal before law. All kinds of discrimination are forbidden."

I added equality “before law” to avoid misinterpretations about “material equality” that could lead to communist and authoritarian ideas. Also to forbid any kind of discrimination is enough (a list will always left something out, or it should be “numerus apertus”)

5º. Asgardia respects the laws of the states on Earth and the international agreements and wishes to be recognized as equal country among other states on Earth.

Rewording:

"Asgardia respects sovereignty of states of Earth and declares to be legally bound by the International Declaration of Human Rights and ius gentium. Asgardia requests political recognition to the states of Earth as a sovereign space nation and a subject of international law"

Asgardia doesn’t have to “respect the laws” (every and each law of any state) but only the “sovereignty” of states, being a “sovereign nation and a subject of international law” (like Holy See, Order of Malta or Palestine –before 2012-: entities and subjects of international law, but not states).

Asgardia doesn’t have to legally “respect” any of the international agreements all around the World, but only “ius gentium”, i.e. international law made binding law by use and custom and in this sense it’s accepted universally as binding law by all states. Asgardia will only be bound by the international agreements that it is part of (as any other State do too). Asgardia don’t “wish” but “request” a formal recognition to each state of Earth.

6º. Asgardia does not interfere in the affairs of the states on Earth on the principle of reciprocity.

This is part of “ius gentium”, and it’s called “principle of non intervention on inner affairs”. It can be completed with the “principle of Neutrality” (as suggested by @Victor Fiallos).

Rewording:

"Asgardia does not and will not interfere and shall remain peaceful and neutral in the affairs of the states of Earth, and Asgardia claims for a reciprocal behavior from the states of Earth”

7º. Asgardia takes part in events on Earth at an international level, like any other country, based on its membership in respective international organizations. In

Rewording:

"Asgardia, as a sovereign nation and a subject of international law, shall have the right to request to become a member or observer of United Nations and of any other international organizations."

Asgardia declares the right to participate as a “sovereign nation and a subject of international law”. We still don’t know if we are going to be accepted as member or even if we want to become a member of them...

8º. Asgardia respects the rights of citizens of Earth states, and protects the rights of its own citizens when it comes to their exclusive rights as citizens of the Space State.

I agree with @bigred, and rewording:

"Asgardia respects the rights of citizens of Earth states as defined by “ius gentium”, the International Declaration of Human Rights and any international agreements in which Asgardia are part of, and protects the rights of its own citizens on Earth and their legal rights as citizens of Asgardia"

9º. Asgardia does not engage in politics, there is no place for political parties in Asgardia. But every Asgardian can freely participate in political life on Earth.

Controversial clause, but unreal. Everything is “politics” and it’s unavoidable. A different thing from “politics” is the “political system” adopted (“representative democracy with political parties”). There are other alternatives to be debated: anarchocapitalism, liquid democracy, direct democracy, libertarian society, organic democracy… We already said in point 1 that founding principles are “democracy”, “liberty” and “equality before law”.

My rewording:

“Asgardia shall have a republican form of government (of the people, for the people and by the people), with some kind of direct democratic political system with universal suffrage. Political parties will not be recognized by law.”

In this way, we avoid temptation of future monarchies or oligarchies, and also possible absolutist, authoritarian, communist or fascist regimes.

It doesn’t forbid “parties” but they will only be “civil associations” as any other, without any political power or participation in the political system, because there will be a “direct democracy” of some kind (so without “political representatives”)

10º. Asgardia mirrors the Earth, but it does not respect the Earth boarders. At the same time, in the framework of earthly law every Asgardian can freely live within the borders of any earthly country.

I agree with @bigred. It needs rewording (I would change “state” for “nation”, and add “dual” citizenship):

"Asgardia is involved with and will protect the Earth and humankind, however, as a space nation, Asgardia is not bound by geographical boundaries set on Earth. To this end and within the laws of each Earthly state, Asgardian citizens can hold dual citizenship of Earthly states and are free to live within those Earthly states"

From a legal point of view the first part is “political” and potentially controversial in case of misinterpretation by Earth states , so maybe it would be enough to say: “Within the laws of each Earth state, Asgardian citizens can hold dual citizenship of Earth states and are free to live within those Earth states"

11º. Asgardia is a country of free spirit, science and internationalism. At the same time, every Asgardian can freely practice any religion on Earth.

Another controversial point. I'm also not sure what "a free spirit" exactly is or how to define it. Perhaps it can be reworded as @bigred said, with some modifications:

"Asgardia encourages progressive scientific research, thinking and international co-operation. Asgardia will never have any official religion. According to the International Declaration of Human Rights, Asgardian citizens are free to practice religion, sexuality, lifestyles and other personal choices which do not interfere with, judge, harm or proselytize others and do not violate any human rights."

What you can do in Earth regarding religion is up to the laws of each Earth state, so there’s no need to say anything in a declaration regarding Asgardia…

12º. There is no place for Earth history in Asgardia. Asgardia creates a new history of the future of the humankind.

Another controversial point. Suggested rewording could be:

"Asgardia is a new start and a new frontier, creating a new history for humankind. The Earth history shall not be used as the basis for quarrels, disputes or differences among Asgardians"

Finally:

We, the people of Asgardia, will do everything for the prosperity of our new space country created by us; for the protection of our motherland - planet Earth; and development of the entire humankind in space. One humanity - one unity. This Declaration is a primary document for the creation of the ASGARDIA - the Space State

I agree with @bigred so it can say:

"We, the people of Asgardia, will strive together for the prosperity of the space nation created and preserved by us, for the protection of Earth as our motherland, and the propagation and development of humankind in space. One humanity - One unity. This Declaration of Unity is the founding document containing the core principles of the society of ASGARDIA as a sovereign space nation."

Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 03:20 UTC

@guzlomi this is very much what I was hoping for: input from someone with a background in law. Thank you so much for also explaining the reasoning behind your choices.

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  Last edited by:  Yoevelyn Rodriguez (Asgardian, Comm Assistant)  on Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 03:40 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: Adding thumbs up

Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 04:00 UTC

Hey everyone, I have read the 'declaration of unity' and I like it for the most part, however - like most of the people with common sense are a bit squemish when it comes to notion '9' there will be no need for political parties. Direct democracy? Liquid Democracy? I am not quite sure how that would even work in the long run. I am entitled to my opinion but the fact that 'political parties' may not play a part in our democracy is somewhat concerning. Sounds like it is paving a way for an technocratic elitist 'democracy' more than anything. I am using the term Democracy, loosely here. North Korea for example tend to boast that they're democratic in their name but really they're not and they have only one candidate haha. You see where I am going with this? Still a bit of a dictatorship to me. Whilst the constitution is still being written, I do hope the need for political parties is just NOT an earthly thing, personally expect a lot of discontent amongst asgardians. Hardly trying to gather 'Unity' if you're going to restrict political parties in Asgardia. I would actively encourage all members of Asgardia to oppose this 9th notion or reword it because to me it appears to be quite vague

Thank you, regards Christopher J Boardman

  Last edited by:  Christopher Boardman (Asgardian, Candidate)  on Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 04:00 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: typo error

Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 04:56 UTC

@ChristopherBoardman

I think what guzlomi proposed (quoted below) is a very good way of going about the "no politics" issue with this declaration.

“Asgardia shall have a republican form of government (of the people, for the people and by the people), with some kind of direct democratic political system with >universal suffrage. Political parties will not be recognized by law.”

In this way, we avoid temptation of future monarchies or oligarchies, and also possible absolutist, authoritarian, communist or fascist regimes.

It doesn’t forbid “parties” but they will only be “civil associations” as any other, without any political power or participation in the political system, because there will be a >“direct democracy” of some kind (so without “political representatives”)

It makes a lot of sense to me: political parties are neither condemned nor condoned, so Asgardians' rights and freedoms of assembly are still intact.

Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 05:56 UTC

@yovy & @guzlomi - statement 9

I think what you are saying is correct but not really something for this declaration

The political system eventually adopted by Asgardia, I guess, should be something similar to what you have attempted to describe. However that and it's workings need to be defined within the constitution and the articles of legislation.

I'm not really sure how to word what I THINK the writers were saying, however I don't think they were trying to define a political system in this declaration. I agree it comes across that way in the English however I doubt it is what they were trying to achieve at this level.

I do wish the powers that be would reply to this forum with some clarification of what the intent is for 9,11,12. That way we aren't offering suggestions without proper knowledge.
I feel that would make the conversation easier.

  Last edited by:  Paul Bellamy (Asgardian)  on Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 05:58 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 06:01 UTC

Acho que a declaração deixa bem explicito que sera uma nação livre que respeitará a liberdade de todos, e que não se envolverá em politica, a não ser que seja convidado em eventos mundiais. Mas me pergunto o por que não haverá lugar para história da Terra em Asgardia, se o planeta é um lugar tão rico e vasto de conhecimento e histórias? Acho essa parte podia ser argumentada melhor tambem. (12) E Alguem poderia me explicar melhor a sexta (06) emenda da declaração? Eu não compreendi direito.

"I think the statement makes it quite explicit that it is a matter of freedom that all the rights of all, and that is not to engage in politics, unless invited to world events. But I do not have a place for Earth history in Asgardia, is the planet such a rich and vast place of knowledge and stories? I think that part could be discussed better as well. (12) And could anyone explain me better the sixth (06) amendment of the statement? I do not get it right." Obs.: Translated into English with the Google translator.

Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 06:32 UTC

I agree ,but some wording needs possibly changed such as sec2 bullet 2 Capital E for the word ensure ,You could leave out the word Planet everyone knows Earth is a planet and possibly after the word Earth it could read and of the entirety of Humankind from threats in space In Sec 4 Religion should be included In Sec 5 and inSec 6 States could be changed to nations Some countries may not like being called states and change the word country to nation in Sec 5 country sounds belittling Sec8 switch around Earth States and change it to the Nations of Earth sec 11 may need some more work their are alot of scientists doctors and such who have a belief of some sort and may not like it if they cant meet especially Muslims also the history of earth is and will be important to Asgardia even in space you learn from the past also like it or not political parties will form over or it just turns to anarchy just my thoughts

Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 10:35 UTC

+1 @ guzlomi

Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 11:30 UTC

I think guzlomi has just staked a claim as the Attorney General of Asgardia.

Nice work. I'd have to seriously question this whole process if the suggestions made are not considered..

Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 11:42 UTC

Wow. Guzlomi's suggestion is one we should definitely keep in mind. I can find no flaws in his rewording suggestions. And they'd still be representative of the original, people's will.