Feb 3, 17 22:31 UTC

Constitution original discussion  

The Constitution of Asgardia draft has expanded beyond the character limit.

Please read the draft here:

https://asgardia.space/en/forum/forum/constitution-132/topic/the-constitution-of-asgardia-draft-2691/

  Last edited by:  skieswanne (Asgardian)  on Feb 10, 17 15:18 UTC, edited 6 times in total.

Feb 4, 17 07:47 UTC

I like this idea.

We should have a very compact constitution for the citizens and
an expanded version for the lawyers of Asgardia.

It must be understandable by young and old citizens. So i like to
suggest some sort of 12 main rules in a compact way, a sort of
index of the expanded version of the constitution.

This could then be put for example on 1 side of an (A4) paper with
the Asgardia logo from the previous official documents. And signed
by the officials.

Grtz, Dirk.

Feb 4, 17 13:11 UTC

@Dick Baeyens:

This is a very good idea, thanks for the suggestion! I totally second this idea.

Post scriptum: I have edited my original post so to include two more articles, I'll also be working on a shorter version as you suggested.

  Last edited by:  skieswanne (Asgardian)  on Feb 4, 17 13:14 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Feb 5, 17 22:15 UTC

I believe the Constitution (and any public official document) should be hosted on a platform that allows peer-review and tracability of changes. Something like GitHub, but for Asgardia, hosted on Asgardia servers.

Basically, the idea behing it is to have a full tracability of every changes made by anyone on the documents themselves. So that it become easy for anyone to review what's changed and when and by whom.

A possible implementation would be for Asgardia to host its own version of GitLab Community Edition: https://about.gitlab.com/products/

Feb 6, 17 02:16 UTC

Or it could just host git - the full version

Feb 7, 17 07:11 UTC

This was a very well designed draft and I wholly second it. Still I am quite in line about markjcooke's points, suggest you take time and review them.

I hope the Officials get to review this when the time is due. Waiting for the fifth article!

  • S
  Last edited by:  Kaani (Asgardian)  on Feb 7, 17 07:12 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Feb 7, 17 21:16 UTC

I feel it is necessary to specify what is the responsibility of each ministry; if you can't do it, then why will it exist? I have written a very brief list to start what might be a basis of the ministries purpose, and from there it will need to expand to define limits, else somewhere in the Constitution it must state that any power not specified cannot be discovered by the government but is the power of the people and can only be granted by the people...

Ministry of Administrative Affairs -to deal with the mundane issues of the state, its personnel, and statistics

Ministry of Finance -to accept budgets from the ministries and set the general budget of the national account within its fiscal limitations of revenue and debt instruments as allowed by the citizenry -to set the 'coin of the realm'

Ministry of Information and Communication -to publish all information created by the government on behalf of its citizens and to discourage secrecy in any form -to establish free and fair election protocalls as allowed by the citizenry

Ministry of Foreign Affairs -to establish and maintain friendy relations with all nations -to represent Asgardia's national interests when and wherever necessary

Ministry of Trade and Commerce -to promote free and fair trade

Ministry of Science -to promote the expansion of human knowledge -to cultivate new knowlege for consumption by our citizens through the ministry of education

Ministry of Youth and Education -to educate the nations next generations from the earliest possible days to the fullfillment of their best personal capacity

Ministry of Safety and Security -to protect the citizenry from dangers both foreign and domestic -to provide preventitive care and education on shipboard life and survival

Ministry of Justice -to provide the citizenry with a fair and impartial review for those charged with crimes -to hold first that all before the courts are innocent before proven guilty -to allow that the citizenry are the final jury and to accept the notion of 'nullification' regardless of what evidence may have been proven in open court.

Ministry of Citizenship -to promote good citizenship amongst the population -to cultivate immigrants into the nation by becoming citizens

  1. The for-now untitled Ministry.

Feb 9, 17 10:49 UTC

@Rick D:

This is a good list, thanks; I have integrated it into A2 P1!

Feb 9, 17 11:59 UTC

Changes brought to the original post:

-Addition of A5 P3: the possibility of Constitutional amendment, as proposed by shadow.harry and EyeR.

-Revision of A2 P1: the clarification of power distribution amongst the twelve ministries (power is equal, stalemates are broken by Head of Nation whose decision represents citizen votes), revision motivated by markjcooke.

-Revision of A2 P2 & A3 P1: government is not immune to prosecution, as proposed by markjcooke.

-Revision of A3 P3: include loss of official status office in case of high crime, as proposed by markjcooke. Loss of awards was not included because awards are personal property, and additionally they are representative of past personal achiements, not of status.

-Revision of A2 P1: clarify function of all ministries, as proposed by RickD.

-Addition of Article 5: description of a coherent democracy, with motions being voted upon before implementation, as suggested by many.

A shorter version, as proposed by Dirk Baeyers, is also in process.

Feb 9, 17 20:08 UTC

@markjcooke:

I am entertaining a similar conclusion. You have a pretty good point; and I totally agree with the fact that a shorter version could form a potential source of loopholes. However Dirk Baeyens also have a good point - personally, if I were to be chatting with a colleague and were to explain the constitution to him, I'd like it if I could present him the key points instead of a ten-minutes monologue.

There may be a middle ground between your suggestion and Dirk's. We could still make a short version, but, at the end of it, specify that it's just a dumbed-down version, for casual discussion purposes only, and may in no way replace the actual Constitution legally.

I'd think that such a short version is bound to emerge on its own, any time in the future anyways, that we want it or not; so I'm thinking, why not initiate it ourselves and make sure it's properly done. :)

cheers

  Last edited by:  skieswanne (Asgardian)  on Feb 9, 17 20:28 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Feb 10, 17 02:50 UTC

re: skieswanne,

the draft is beginning to take shape, I'm happy to see that you are open to adding so many of our critiques. Speaking of which, I do like the ban on eminent domain and asset forfeiture, and would like to see it added, (or at least with public's ability to override on a case by case basis, i.e. vote); it is one power we see abused more and more by local governments and police forces in the U.S. as a way of 'revenue enhancement' in the case of asset forfeiture or culling favors with business by using eminent domain.

Also, as mentioned before, I must ask that you reconsider that this language find it's way into the draft: "Any power not specified in this Constitution cannot be discovered by the government but is an un-named power of the people and can only be granted by the people"

I think markjcooke has a point about the Constitution being a document unto itself, any shortened form would be a reference aid only suitable for a civics class, oh and that reminds me, he mentioned a desire for a clause about clarity, perhaps we can have a discussion later about adding that one.

I'll have a few more thoughts later too and I'm not sure about the head of nation clause, sounds like we have a prime minister position, even after Dr. Igor Ashurbeyli steps down? If so, this clause may need a little more detail regarding ministerial equality? I need to reread the whole document and think some more. Thanks

Feb 10, 17 03:02 UTC

"to hold first that all before the courts are innocent before proven guilty, "

I think I made an error when I typed this originally, if you read it straight, it implied that all are innocent and then proven guilty, not a good statement! We want to replace 'before' with 'unless'; a single word makes a world of difference!

Feb 10, 17 13:25 UTC

Good points! Thanks for pointing these out, and for the "unless" typo too! I'll be integrating those, however the original post is reaching its characters limit count so I can't edit it anymore. Hang on, I'll make a new thread so to make the draft cleaner and more editable. I'll be posting the link right here.

Feb 10, 17 15:24 UTC

The original post expanded beyond the characters count limit. To make it more clean and editable, I have moved the draft here:

https://asgardia.space/en/forum/forum/constitution-132/topic/the-constitution-of-asgardia-draft-2691/

:)

  Last edited by:  skieswanne (Asgardian)  on Feb 10, 17 15:25 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Feb 10, 17 18:07 UTC

@markjcooke:

Yes, I'm in the process of going through those six pages, some good arguments there to consider.

I'm also in the process of editing the draft to include those eminent domain & asset forfeiture bans you and Rick D have suggested.

:)