I think both ideas could work but, I was thinking more along the lines of a tranquilizer round. Something that is not traditional but shaped like a bullet and operates on the same design as those rings that hide those little needles and allow you to give someone a dose of your chosen drug when it makes contact with them. Such bullets would not have the power to punch through both hulls, but would still incapacitate a person and because the dose size they would hold would be limited. They would be very hard to use to kill someone with in a single shot

Hmmm.... not a bad idea better than rubber silicon bullets.

Hello everybody, so, the "Banned?" thread led me here, and as I imagined, this conversation escalated pretty quickly, from my experience this always happens, especially between americans and europeans, and usually it ends up with both sides maintaining their previous view. In my opinion civilians shouldn't carry a concealed weapon, the whole purpose of Asgardia is to be an evolved society, and I can't imagine that happening by simulating a Space Far West (in fact, in that case I would happily leave Asgardia to its destiny). Since the project implies a space station (and it's something that will happen, IF will happen, very far in the future), everything sent to said station will be fully verified and monitored from earth, nobody will be able to carry any weapon for criminal intents so, except the security (well trained to deal with an hostile, using lethal force only as the very last resort), nobody else will have to carry a weapon. Improvised weapons are highly unreliable, and even if well done, they're effective only at close range, so a proper security force will be able to deal with that kind of situation easily, as the civilians clear the area. Non-lethal weapons are just less-lethal weapons, so even in that case I don't approve civilians having them, I approve only pepper spray, if I have to choose. On earth, in many countries, people live happily without having to carry a gun with them, feeling safe the whole time, that's how I imagine an advanced society living in space. That's my opinion and you have yours of course, but if we're going to vote, assuming that the heads of Asgardia haven't decided yet, mine (as I hope the majority of the voters) will be a "no" for sure.

May I remind you this passage from the Concept of Asgardia: "The essence of Asgardia is Peace in Space, and the prevention of Earth’s conflicts being transferred into space".

Yes there is the established USA vs European perpective on weapons in society... and then the Australian experience that is an example of how a nation can decide to leave part of its "culture" behind for the betterment of the society as a whole.

I remember many, many times as a teenager going to a friends farm and using a Chinese made SKS semi-automatic assault rifle to hunt feral pigs. Exposure to firearms was very much a part of the norm for kids growing up in rural areas. Even a lot of people in major cities had handguns and rifles and knew someone on farm where they could go to "squeeze off a few". There were a few mass casulty events here and there, but it seemed society as a whole agreed that these events were an acceptable price to pay for our right to possess firearms.

Then in April 1996, the Port Arthur massacre happened. It is likely many of you are unfamiliar with this event. I suggest you Google it to gain a true appreciation of the magnitude and horror of this event.

In the immediate aftermath, something changed in the minds of the overwhelming majority of Australians. They told their politicians on mass that enough was enough and that they never wanted a Port Arthur to happen again. This resulted in political unity on gun control and by the end of 1996, a new program to licence legitimate firearm use had been instituted and nearly 700,000 guns were removed from society. That may not sound like a lot to our American brothers and sisters, but the population of Australia in 1996 was around 18 million.

Now Australia is by no means "gun free". Farmers, professional hunters, collectors and sporting shooters can still legally possess firearms that are fit for their purpose. And yes, criminals can, and do, acquire guns. But there has been an undeniable correlation between reducing the number of weapons in society and a reduction in weapon related crime and deaths (both deliberate and accidential).

This is what gives me hope that maybe, just maybe, Asgardia can take the next step. A step where our society decides that the general populice has no need for the use of weapons of any sort.

Now I already know that some of the people on this thread are going to howl at this idea. They'll say "you're naieve", "it's my right to protect me and mine" and "who will stop the bad guys". But to those people, I ask two things:

1. Think about how the stated goals of Asgardia can be best achieved. Is it by lacking faith and trust in our fellow citizens to the point where we feel we have to arm ourselves?

2. Asgardia as a nation will be unique in that its citizens are united by a common idealogy. We (in theory) shouldn't be hampered by the Earthly divisions of geography, culture, religion or race. Is skepticism and mistrust of your fellow Asgardians the way forward to a successful nation?

And just to be 100% clear, I have been on the record about the need for Asgardia AS A WHOLE to have the capacity to defend itself from Earth based threat - that is a completely different issue to this.

Hi Alessandro,

The thing is human being as a species are not yet at a point where they can build an advanced society. Which is why I advocate for law abiding citizens to be able to carry firearms designed to fire non lethal rounds. The situation must be approached realistically, the people involved in this project myself included simply are not so enlightened that, simply moving off world is enough to guarantee that Asgardian society will be different than any planetary society. I mean just consider that some folks seemed to have been implying that, just because someone who was banned should have gotten a pass just because they liked his ideas and/or because he seemed to know what he was talking about to them! That kind of mind set where they think the rules should not apply to all is not conducive to building a better society. Furthermore, take the fact that the person in question allowed the disenchantment he felt towards being human. Cause him to be as nasty and toxic as he was just because you disagreed with him as is your right to and you should begin to see that. The very same problems of Earth that Asgardia seeks to leave behind will still make into Asgardian society.

I have said twice before that the people first need to change themselves before Asgardian society can ever be different from that of the Earth and that starts with first changing their ways of thinking. To ones that foster and support the type of society in which they wish to live! That means holding folks accountable for their actions for one thing and ensuring that the rules apply to everyone regardless of what they may know and if you like them. It also means providing folks with ways to defend themselves should it becomes necessary. No one can rightly suggest that others should not be allowed to carry a weapon to defend themselves with. Because they have no right to suggest anything that could cause harm to befall others. They can however choose not to carry weapons themselves which only puts them at risk since their lives are the only ones. They have any right to put in harm's way.

What's more is those folks in my opinion are not talking the safety of anyone else but themselves into consideration. When they makes these suggestions, if they were they would have no objections. After all, the person carrying the weapon is sharing in the danger carrying one might represent should a hull breach occur accidentally. Which is the absolute only time it is acceptable to take an action that could put others at risk

@Scarbs,

Gun related fatalities may have dropped in Australia due to the horrific event you mentioned but, they did not vanish completely did they? Also, criminals are still able to acquire them and it is for that singular reason why guns still exist in your country. People carry weapons not because of their own desire to but, because of the need presented by the fact that. Violent criminals exist in the world and they do not observe the laws in place and many people do not want to be the next victim you hear about on the news! Something they can not be faulted for and have the right to protect themselves from being.

Furthermore, the criminal element would have to be removed completely from society. In order for weapons to no longer be needed and that is not likely to ever happen. People can not just decide that weapons are not needed while violent criminals still exist in society. Because the threat of being the victim of a violent crime is what fuels the need for being able to defend one's self! Why does someone wanting to be able to defend themselves amount to mistrust in their fellow Asgardian in your eyes? The logic you are using does not make any sense, I mean, the fact that folks will have separate bank accounts could also be said to display mistrust in their fellow Asgardians. After all, if they trusted their fellow man wouldn't one national account for everyone do just fine? The situation is not even one of mistrust, it is one of wanting to be prepared should a situation arises that requires defensive action be taken! You may not intend to but by insinuating that wanting to be prepared signifies mistrust in fellow Asgardian citizens. You are attempting to guilt people into buying into your perspective on the matter.

A true situation of people not having trust in their fellow Asgardians is the banned situation. Some folks assumed that favoritism was shown and one person banned without reason. Even though posts can be found on the forums warning said person about their behaviour. Posts even exist demonstrating the behaviour that lead to the ban. Which should be self explanatory as to why the person was banned. Anyway, my point is people wanting to be prepared just in case they should have to defend themselves. Does not signify mistrust in anyone it merely signifies that they do not wish to be harmed by anyone. If you choose not to carry a weapon because you believe it is not necessary, then more power to you but, do not ask others to do the same simply because you feel it is not necessary. That is a selfish request and can get people hurt, people you have no right to put in harm's way

Hi Brandon7,

I'm not going to try to change your mind on the issue - your position on this issue is as set as mine, and that's fine.

I do want to clarify one issue though:

"Why does someone wanting to be able to defend themselves amount to mistrust in their fellow Asgardian in your eyes?" - That's a simple one. If I feel like I can't trust my fellow citizens to not cause harm to me, then of course I would want to take steps to protect myself.

BTW - I'm in total agreement with you on the banning issue. Not a great start to developing trust in Asgardia's future government.

You see, everything we say is questionable, that's why I always make clear that mine are personal opinions. For example, when you say that people should be able to defend themselves by using weapons, I say that this way you allow weapons in Asgardia, which to me is unacceptable. I really appreciate your opening about non-lethal weapons (or rounds if you prefer), but as I've said they don't really exist, there are only less-lethal weapons, but you'll always have a certain percentage of risk, and if you don't allow weapons in the first place (since you know exactly what goes to the space station), you won't have any armed criminal (or criminal armed with an improvised weapon as I've said before). With properly trained guards, there would be no need of concealed weapons to stop someone misbehaving. Then again, when you say that we aren't at the point to reach an advanced civilization, I say that this mindset kinda defeats the purpose of Asgardia; if we aren't ready then let's just keep our problems here on earth, no need to invest time on this project if the point is to replicate bad things that already exist in the current society, don't you think? Once you let everybody owning a weapon there's no coming back, and the society you'll have will be full of people doubting each other, thinking constantly "what if he\she snaps and decides to fire his\her weapon?" or "I got to purchase a bigger weapon to be safer" then someone could steal the weapons and use them for criminal purposes and so on. That's definitely not the environment I want for Asgardia.

By the way, regardless of what we think (which is pretty obvious), would be really interesting to set a vote on the matter somewhere, just to explore the feelings of the Asgardians (at least of those who are active in the forum). Is there an Admin that knows if it's possible? And again, is there an Admin that knows if the issue is being analyzed by the heads of Asgardia, or if there're already guidelines to follow? It would be great to have such feedbacks, I think .

Hey Scarbs,

I just want to let you know that your answer does not really answer my question. It actually is contradictory to your statement about mistrust in your fellow Asgardian! I guess, you could say that although, the news is filled with examples that support it. No, no that is not very good at all, people should have more faith than that and be more willing to accept that. Not everyone is as good a person as they first seem especially over the internet where they can be whoever they please. I myself have run into such people, so I am more careful about judging a person's character over the internet and to clarify things, I think it would be nice if weapons could be done without in any society. I am however more realistic than that and realize that there are situations in reality that make that an impossibility

Well, you see, when you say that you are more realistic than that, you imply that your point of view is kinda the "most true", but as I've stated before, we could argue infinitely, over and over again debating every point, but at the end of the day, those are still our personal opinions. Even I could affirm that I'm more realistic when I say that you can prevent criminals having weapons, if you accurately check what you are going to send to the Station, making the environment of Asgardia safer, but that's my opinion. I say that if Asgardia is doomed to be just a space replica of what's wrong with earth, then it's better to not waste anymore time on it, because it's pointless, the whole point is to create a new society, not to copy and paste something that already exists and put it above the clouds.

What I can state as a fact is that we are debating stuff that will (maybe, just maybe, because as you know, there are many steps before the actual construction of the station, just to name one, the recognition as members of the UN) happen in a very far future, so many things could change in the meantime, no doubt about that.

I'd really like to have an Admin to answer my two previous questions though.

Not an admin, but know the answers.

You can create a post and select "Poll" next to Options to create a poll yourself. Worded well, and people will vote accordingly.

Right now the Constitution isn't even assembled, and (from what little I have read thus far) it doesn't seem to mention personal weaponry. We just have an outline right now, really. Things are not very far along, so the majority of 'debate' going on is purely academic, mental masturbation if you will.

YVC

You may find bringing weapons aboard with which to protect one's self unacceptable Alessandro but, what is really unacceptable is some folks pushing a belief that they have that has the potential to endanger others. Just because they believe it could work despite the fact that. Anything can be used as a weapon so, a criminal will always be able to get his/her hands on one. It is not a mindset, it is a reality, just look at all the things people currently do to each other. Wanting to build a better society is nice and all but, it is not possible unless you first begin with the people who will make up said society. Which means the first thing folks need to worry about is not setting up a governing body, creating a constitution, or any other infrastructure that will be needed but, changing themselves so they are capable of brining about the society in which they wish to live and by the different opinions that have been voiced or typed in this case. Is a peaceful society and to be that type of person, you need to think and act as that kind of person! In many cases that is not what folks have demonstrated themselves to be. Many love the idea but seemingly only half way commit to it. When I say non lethal, I mean not intended to kill, not that it can not kill as that is what a non lethal round is a round not intended to kill. People doubt each other already and will continue to even if weapons do not exist in their society. I do not want that type of environment either but, what I want does not matter. The same goes for what you want, because neither of us have control over all the factors that may cause people to feel the need to possess a weapon. No matter how well trained those guards are they can not possibly anticipate every move someone could make to obtain a weapon improvised or not. I mean, how would we keep weapons out of Asgardia anyway when I for example could strangle someone with a shoelace!?

It would not be possible without severely impeding upon the freedoms of the citizens and turning Asgardia into some dictatorship where the citizens are closely monitored to ensure they do not posess any weapons of any kind. Is that the kind of society you want to live in? The only reasonable way to deal with the situation is to let people choose to carry a weapon or not. Not force everyone to not carry a weapon because you find it unacceptable. Besides, what happens is the suggestion is implemented, some criminal disregards it, obtains a weapon somehow, and harms a person or people? You would partly be responsible considering you supported the idea and left folks in a vulnerable position.

No, we could not, and no I do not, when I sai I am realistic I mean I use the real world occurences to formulate my opinions and not just believe an idea of mine will work just because I want it to. Which is an unrealistic and often dangerous way of thinking. You could claim that yes but, it is not realistically possible to prevent criminals from obtaining weapons. Without reducing us as a society to nudists who haven't any of the tools we rely upon and even then you could not prevent the obtaining of weapons. Your body itself can be used as a weapon, which means the only true way to achieve what your example refers to is to connect people to a matrix like device that provides life support and entertainment functions. Because only then will folks be unable to obtain weapons. It is capable to succeed with this project, so, it is not doomed, well not currently. People just need to stop mistaking what needs to be done in order for it to do so. If we the people involved in the project become the type of people we want to see in society. The project will be a smashing success, everything will fall into place once the people become the type of people we need to be. Remember, a great nation is built upon great citizens not great ideals!

You are right, Phicksur, that's exactly what I meant. Thanks for the advice about the creating a poll option, I've totally missed that part, I'm still not used to the forum as you may have imagined.

Brandon7, as I've said before an improvised weapon should be easy to deal with, even without a proper weapon, since often they're effective (assuming that they're done properly) at very close range, and limited at one shot (if they can actually shoot something), so I don't see the need to carry arms on board even considering this option, guards should be able to contain the problem.

People will always doubt each other? Maybe, but being aware that the other person has a weapon makes me doubt of him\her no matter what, I can't trust someone who can't trust me to begin with.

It wouldn't be a dictatorship, it would be an advanced society, where you can walk without the need of a weapon, that is progress, owning a weapon because you can't feel safe in your own enviroment is regression, the rule of the jungle in the 21st century.

Why it's so unrealistic to control what you send to a space station? If the security is trained properly there's no way to have weapons smuggled on board, on the other hand if you let everyone carry a weapon, you'll end up in a space far west no matter what.

I say it again, if Asgardia will be full of weapons, its very purpose will be defeated, no advanced society contemplates weapons.

"The essence of Asgardia is Peace in Space, and the prevention of Earth’s conflicts being transferred into space."

If we don't trust each other, then Asgardia can't be the example it aims to be.

So, an opinion have been asked about if "civilians may carry (concealed) weapons or have them to be left to "security" (I bet Police)".

My bare opinion, following @Alessandro Zuffi's one, is:

1. no civilian should be allowed to carry any weapon, deadly or not, unless expressly authorized by Police forces, possibly for limited time and exact reason.

2. Police forces (AKA Security) should carry "not (so) deadly" weapons (AKA Tasers, clubs) but (deadly) weapons should be available to them, to use if really needed.

3. Asgardia should keep even military grade weapons but sealed into armories untill the Head of State or the Government won't ask Police and civilians to use them to protect it's territory, the Nation, and the freedom.

4. About the previous point, there may be some kind of "military force" of professionals, which can lead asgardians when needed, or it may be substituted by Police/Security at need.

That's what I think about "civilians and weapons" topic.
I've to add I'm italian, so european, I'm not used to walk on roads thinking the ones who are approaching me can carry weapons (concealed or not) like it's a normal thing. I prefer to walk thinking people around me are not allowed to carry weapons at all, and only Police can do it.
I did my military service, I used rifles, I'm not scared by "weapons", I'm scared by the ones who thinks it's normal to carry them.
I usually carry my cellphone, not a gun.
I tried reading the whole thread but, after the first posts/pages, I saw the ones who think "weapons should be allowed to carry by civilians" getting angry and insulting the ones who didn't agree with them so, let me think what can happen if you all was in a room with those persons was carrying guns: I just don't wish to be there.

@EyeR

The presence of weaponry in your day to day life should really be an indication that something somewhere is very very wrong.

That's terribly true, in my opinion and shouldn't be allowed, especially in the space, especially when we're trying to build a new nation on new foundations, one of which should be some kind of ethic.
I particularly appreciated @Scarbs words also, about the improvement of Australian's life after the weapons' ban. I think Asgardia needs more people like @Scarbs and less civilians carrying weapons.

I'm also extremely sad to discover that, after quarreling here, @EyeR have been banned (him alone?!?) and I'll won't let it go under silence.

The problem, Elwe, stems from fear, I believe.

Folks who think they need to be able to keep weapons for themselves are afraid. They fear the government, authority, even other citizens under the belief that others want what they have and will take it from them if they are not strong enough to defend it.

Unfortunately, that was the thinking of our caveman ancestors. Once laws and police forces were created, most folks have tried to become more civilized and trust in the authorities to take care of the cavemen of modern day. Sure, there are rotten authorities, and there are times when the authorities cannot arrive in time to protect an individual citizen, but overall most people live in peace. Again, it all comes down to being more afraid than faithful.

The main problem on Earth with guns is that they are very easy to obtain. Therefore, the idea that a criminal might have a gun isn't far-fetched, it is almost a guarantee for all but the poorest of criminals. I can actually understand why, on Earth, someone would wish to be armed in order to protect themselves. There are too few authorities for too many people, and the authorities cannot protect everyone. On Earth, people should be a bit afraid of being shot, especially if they live in a place where most people have guns.

In Asgardia, however, the situation will be very different. There won't be a bunch of firearms to be easily obtained. Guns are heavy, bullets are too (in quantity), so regular firearms would be largely wasted space to even take INTO space. Someone may be able to fashion a makeshift firearm, but even that would be limited to one, perhaps two shots before it would require a reloading, and wouldn't carry near the lethality of today's firearms, especially as medical facilities should be within a few hundred meters on a space station. There would simply be far less reason to be afraid.

Every argument I have seen in the defense of personally carrying firearms has boiled down to fear. In my experience, every decision based on fear has ultimately been proved to have been a bad choice, or the worst choice of all possible choices. Thus, I do not think that laws or rules should be written based on fears, but instead of realistic hope. Yes, people will do bad things, if they are put into a position where the bad thing seems to be the best choice. If people are given better options, with fewer penalties and punishment, only the insane, or terrified would still pick the bad option.

OMH

@Alessandro,

It is not a matter of people not trusting each other and no one should trust anyone else unless that person earns that trust. Whether you would want to walk around folks who you can not trust means squat, you are not so special that it should mean anything, no one is including me. If Asgardia were to become a reality tomorrow and we could all relocate there. I would not trust anyone and it is not anything personal. It is just I have no idea if any of you can be trusted and for that reason alone I would not blindly place trust in any of you. People often abuse that which they did not work for and that includes trust. Sorry to say this but most of the arguments against folks having weapons is pure nonsense! There is no demonstrable link between people wanting to own weapons for defense and fear, suggesting that folks should not be allowed to own any weapons without consent of the police. Not only takes away a freedom everyone has, it also treats them as children who are unable to properly handle weapons and need someone to hold their hands. The entire suggestion is insulting and the person who suggested it should have more class than that, and worst of all these suggestions would only serve to aid the non law abiding citizens in Asgardian society!

No, it will not be an advanced society, even advanced societies will have weapons. It will be a society of pretenders sorry to say, you do not build an advanced society with pretty ideals alone. You can only build the illusion of such with pretty ideals alone. Also, as has been proven throughout history, the need for weapons comes from the need to protect one's self from others that have weapons and ill intent as well as predators and such people are not in short supply! In the days of the old west crime rates were ridiculously low because everyone pretty much was armed. Crime only became a problem when the government decide to try and take guns away from folks! You want folks to trust you? Then prove yourself to be trustworthy with your actions it is that simple, weapons need not go anywhere. To be honest with you, I do not trust folks who suggest ideas that reality has proven to be bad ones. It makes me think they are up to something. Can you name just one example of a group not having weapons to defend themselves with leading to an advanced society? If you all do not wish to carry weapons then fine that is your choice. But, none of you have the ability to make that choice for others, so stop trying to.

If the Asgardia project were to fail it will be because folks have only done a half complete job at making Asgardia a reality. You gotta do more than use the ideals and philosophies of Asgardia to try and bolster your argument. You have to make those ideals and philosophies your own and believe in and practice them wholeheartedly. People are not doing that however, most of you have your heads so high in the clouds that you can not even see that. Only when the people and the ideals come together as one will the Asgardia you all say you want become a reality. So, will the project succeed or fail? It is in your hands what will you do?