Mar 28, 17 / Tau 03, 01 18:38 UTC
Re: Discussion of the Declaration of Unity ¶
Without history there is no future. Without documenting history, mistakes will be repetitive.
Mar 28, 17 / Tau 03, 01 18:38 UTC
Without history there is no future. Without documenting history, mistakes will be repetitive.
Mar 28, 17 / Tau 03, 01 19:39 UTC
There's nothing new in the world except the history you do not know
Mar 28, 17 / Tau 03, 01 20:37 UTC
Number 4. The word "race" should be deleted. Number 12. I would change this point a bit. Maybe everyone has the right to study and remember their history, culture and traditions of their people, but the era of the new state begins, which will create its own history, where every citizen of Asgardia respects the new history of Asgardia!
Mar 28, 17 / Tau 03, 01 21:17 UTC
good time to all asgardians! first of all, thanks to the people who are working to the declaration. I know this is not the final draft, but i'll fix here some point not clear to me. i've read many comments and other people have shown the same or others questions, sorry if i'll result recurring: 1) is asgardia a nation or a state? there are differences between the two terms. at the moment 'state' is more appropriate, we are not already 'unite' in one nation (with one language, one culture, one tradition etc.) even if this is our goal. so, have we call asgardia a nation from now on? if at the moment we can't, have we to put this goal somewhere clear in the declaration? 2) everyone can join asgardia,ok. even a criminal? and what on asgardia will be considered criminal or illegal? there will be a filter? and if the criminal is an asgardian? have we mention any limitation (no discrimination) on law? which law? 3) very good all the attempts to prevent discrimination of all kind, somebody else has already proposed other edits to enrich the list, but in my opinion we have a 'problem' with religion. people can belive in what they want, but practing rituals in public or forcing to proselitism or followin different traditions, that are also quite impraticable in space, are to be avoided. how to tell people to separete personal, individual belifs, from practing any kind of ritualisms or pubblic manifestations? i agree with no state religion, and also with no religion at all but in this case are we discriminating people or are we deciding to write a new 'human history', a utopia? 4) same doubt about the last point on declaration: history. it's a good thing looking ahed, making a new story, focusing on future and new directions, but we can't forget who we are. nations, as people, to individualize themselves have to know about their 'narrations' who they are. remembering... recording...interpreting... even if it occurs with no correct information, is important for the process in itself, both for the individuals and for the nation. i think this point and that about only 'on earth' religion have to be better explained to avoid misundarstandings and to make decision to join asgardia a really free choice accepting or non accepting the principles of this 'nation'. thanks again to everybody
Mar 28, 17 / Tau 03, 01 21:26 UTC
When it said Asgardia is a place for science and internationalism, does it mean we can still practice our religion or are we banned to do so and only can do so when we return to earth? I agree that we must leave back our identities as former earth people but we should learn from the mistakes of the humans on earth and not to repeat it. We should be the example that everyone can look up to(literally)!
Mar 28, 17 / Tau 03, 01 21:36 UTC
Rajarshi, as written the declaration says we are free to practice any religion on earth. Either that means you can practice whatever religion you want on Asgardia or religion is strictly forbidden on Asgardia, but no attempt will be made to hinder the practice outside the sovereign territory of Asgardia.
Wish I could clarify which meaning is intended, but no one who is authorized to do so is willing to do so at this time. Perhaps we will be informed at some point in the future? No one knows.
Mar 28, 17 / Tau 03, 01 22:18 UTC
I don't know what you mean by rectify in this context. We are talking about a sentence that is so ambiguous it could be interpreted as either of two extreme opposites. Do you mean rectify it to the original intended meaning, whatever that might have been? Do you mean rectify it to a sentence with a meaning that Asgardians prefer? Do you mean something else entirely?
Please include this in the feedback: There are numerous questions being raised about this decree which should have had answers before the decree was published. These questions aren't being answered. It is not clear what the goal of feedback is intended to do or who will be considering the feedback or what will be done with the feedback. There is no publicly available timeline for the review, editing, republication, or ratification of this decree. It is unclear what the purpose of the Declaration of Unity is.
It is better to do nothing than to damage Asgardia by jumping the gun with attention grabbing, but inadequately planned for decrees.
Mar 29, 17 / Tau 04, 01 00:13 UTC
Hello Asgardians! I have carefully studied the Declaration of Unity, and find no fault in the document. It is simple, understandable and clear. There may be some issues in grammar and spelling, that is to be expected with translation. I feel this is a well thought out document . I support it, and eagerly look forward to studying the draft of our Constitution.
Mar 29, 17 / Tau 04, 01 01:22 UTC
It's possibly worth remembering that this document is a statement of general principles (beliefs). It is NOT meant to be the constitution or a detailed listing of every personal platform that is allowable or not within Asgardian society. For what it's worth I think most of the difficulties are a "lost in translation" issue (from Russian to English). I am not very good at legal or even business level wording however here are a few of my suggestions:
1. Asgardia is a free and unified space state. I think the intent is to say that we are all in general agreement with the objectives of Asgardia and the principles of the society. This is also a declaration that Asgardia is a free state in control of it's own destiny. The difficulty, as Yovi pointed out, is that "unified" is either not the right wording or it needs to be defined in what we are unified. Maybe something like "...unified by common objectives and principles as defined below...".
2. the objectives of Asgardia are to: • ensure peace in space • ensure the protection of planet Earth and the entire humankind from outer space threats; • ensure equal opportunities in space for all Asgardians living on Earth, regardless of geographic, financial, technological and other features of the countries of their earthly citizenship. The second point needs to be reworded for proper grammar. Maybe something like >"ensure the protection of planet Earth and humankind from threats from space.". It's possible that the writers wished to segregate natural space threats and man made space threats in this statement. If that is the case then instead of using the words "outer space" the distinction should be defined. The last point may be improved with "ensure equal opportunity in space for all Asgardians regardless of geographic, financial, technological or other situations within the countries of Earth in which they are citizens, or in space."
3. Any citizen of Earth can become a citizen of Asgardia, if he concurs with this Declaration, accepts the Future Constitution and legislation of Asgardia. The intent is that anyone can become a citizen if they agree to and follow the principles and laws of Asgardian society. As earth has no citizenship and this document is also for the future "Any person can become a citizen of Asgardia if they concur with and accept the Asgardian Declaration of Unity, Constitution and legislation". Although there could be debate concerning what acceptance means.
4. All citizens of Asgardia are equal, regardless of their country of origin, residence, citizenship, race, nation, gender, language, or financial standing. The intent here surely, is to state that all citizens of Asgardia have equal status and opportunity. The current statement mentions details which have already lead to offenses that either something was included (eg. race) or wasn't included (eg. LGBT). Just state the principle "All citizens of Asgardia are equal, having equal social standing and opportunity within Asgardian society".
5. Asgardia respects the laws of the states on Earth and the international agreements and wishes to be recognized as equal country among other states on Earth. In English this comes across as a plea, begging for recognition. "Asgardia respects the laws of states of Earth and international law as recognised by the relevant Earth organisations"
6. Asgardia does not interfere in the affairs of the states on Earth on the principle of reciprocity. I know the intent is to say Asgardia won't interfere and expects that other nations will reciprocate and leave Asgardia alone however that needs to be stated clearly. "Asgardia does not interfere in the affairs of the states of Earth and claims the right to conduct it's social affairs without interference from other states of Earth.". Maybe a bit provocative though
7. Asgardia takes part in events on Earth at an international level, like any other country, based on its membership in respective international organizations. In English this interprets as a bit of a plea. "Asgardia takes part in events on Earth at an international level as a sovereign state, based on it's membership in relevant international organisations."
8. Asgardia respects the rights of citizens of Earth states, and protects the rights of its own citizens when it comes to their exclusive rights as citizens of the Space State. Define what the rights of citizens of other states are (Asgardians rights should be defined in the constitution). "Asgardia respects the rights of citizens of Earth states as defined by relevant international law and treaties, and protects the rights of it's own citizens and their exclusive rights as a citizen of the space nation."
Statements 5-8 are declarations of "sovereignty of state". Asgardia is proclaiming it's sovereignty as a state and defining the principles of how it interacts with other sovereign states. These must be politically correct or there is no chance of recognition by any other state or organisation.
9. Asgardia does not engage in politics, there is no place for political parties in Asgardia. But every Asgardian can freely participate in political life on Earth. Surely the intent and not the political system is what we are looking at here. At this stage we don't know exactly what the layout of Asgardia's political system will be so let's just stick to the principle that we don't want the political nonsense and corruption we have currently on Earth. "Politics" is being used here for a concept of lobbying for your own benefit and power with no concern for others. This needs to be defined so that no one confuses this principle with a definition of the political system Asgardia adopts. I admit I don't really know how at the moment.
10. Asgardia mirrors the Earth, but it does not respect the Earth boarders. At the same time, in the framework of earthly law every Asgardian can freely live within the borders of any earthly country. In English this actually means Asgardia does not recognise the sovereignty of Earth states. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the intent is to state that Asgardia is not beholden to any earthly state borders and is unencumbered by geographical boundaries. Perhaps "Asgardia is involved with and will protect the Earth and humankind, however, as Asgardia is a space state, Asgardia is not bound by geographical boundaries set on Earth. To this end and within the laws of each Earthly state, Asgardian citizens can hold citizenship of Earthly states and are free to live within those Earthly states"
11. Asgardia is a country of free spirit, science and internationalism. At the same time, every Asgardian can freely practice any religion on Earth. I'm not sure what "a free spirit" is however I think the intent is that Asgardia encourages progressive scientific and internationally based thinking however does not condemn or judge people on the basis of religion as long as they practice it on Earth. Perhaps just state "Asgardia as a state encourages progressive scientific research, thinking and international co-operation" Then another point could be something like "Asgardian citizens are free to practice religion, sexuality, lifestyles and other personal choices which do not interfere with, judge, harm or proselityse other Asgardians. Within the Earthly states, of which Asgardian citizens may also be citizens, they may practice their own personal belief systems within the laws of that state." Although that is more like a statement from a Constitution rather than this declaration of unity and principle.
12. There is no place for Earth history in Asgardia. Asgardia creates a new history of the future of the humankind. I'm pretty sure the intent is to actually say Asgardia wont be repeating the same thinking and process as our interminable horrible history on Earth. So perhaps something like "Asgardia is a new start, creating a new history. The previous Earth history will not be used as the basis for the thoughts, invention, development, or teaching. There is no place for repetition of the thinking and procession of previous Earth history within the Asgardian future"
We, the people of Asgardia, will do everything for the prosperity of our new space country created by us; for the protection of our motherland - planet Earth; and development of the entire humankind in space. One humanity - one unity. This Declaration is a primary document for the creation of the ASGARDIA - the Space State The intent is to state Asgardias' citizen's unity of purpose and goal within the framework of a nation state. "We, the people of Asgardia, will strive together for the prosperity of the space nation created and preserved by us, for the protection of planet Earth and the propagation and development of humankind in space. One humanity - One unity. This Declaration of Unity is the primary statement of the principles of the society of ASGARDIA, a space nation."
Mar 29, 17 / Tau 04, 01 01:46 UTC
I'll suggest it again just for the record:
It seems to me sensible that every formal document should be edited by a person whose first language is the language the document is written in.
These persons should have experience in writing similar documents at least at a business if not legal level.
These persons should work in conjunction with the original formulators of the document to ensure they get the true meaning and intent of the document translated.
I hope that's not offensive to anyone.
Mar 29, 17 / Tau 04, 01 01:51 UTC
I think point 6 needs revision. Isn't better NEUTRALITY instead of RECIPROCITY PRINCIPLE? Isn't a better idea to be neutral if we intend to not interfere in earth's affairs and Earth can't interfere with us?
Mar 29, 17 / Tau 04, 01 02:02 UTC
Thats a very good point victor
Mar 29, 17 / Tau 04, 01 02:16 UTC
bigred, thank you for your contribution to this discussion. Your thoughts appear carefully considered and well thought out.. I read the Declaration this morning before I went to work and thought about this throughout the day, and your suggestions are such that I don't feel that I need to go over it all again as your suggestions are where I am also coming from.
Your reminder to everyone that this is a "statement of general principles" is correct, but I wanted to also add that this is a first "draft" of the Declaration of Unity, not the Constitution and certainly not the finished product of either document that we would be voting on.
I did want to mention that the concerns from a good number of fellow Asgardians regarding religion and history are probably not an area that should garner great concern at this point as I feel that the "intent" is to state that we as a society would not be driven by our history or our individual faith's.
Our earthly histories have made us who we are at this point in time and Asgardia will move forward having learned from our mistakes "on earth" and not carry the past attitudes and failings into our future.
As for religion, I believe the intent there is to leave the individual Asgardian the right to practice their belief system as long as it is not forced on those who believe differently. Religion is very personal and is meant to guide the actions of a person; to make them better, not force others to be just like them.
As for the rest of the document, it is an excellent beginning and with cooperation and discussion we Asgardians can make it as perfect as imperfect beings can.
Thank you all for participating in this very important process....
William (Bill) McAlpine
Mar 29, 17 / Tau 04, 01 02:23 UTC
I forgot about the header in my previous post so here goes:
We, the free people of the first in the history of existing humanity Space country ASGARDIA, based on the birthright of Man in the universe, adopt this DECLARATION
Without being too critical this just doesn't work in English. We all know what it is trying to say however the translation isn't working. Maybe something like:
We, the free people of the space nation Asgardia, adopt the following principles as a declaration of our unity and the basis of the first space nation
We, the free people of the space nation Asgardia, make the following declaration of principle
We, the free people of the first space nation Asgardia, declare and adopt the following principles
We, the free people of Asgardia, declare the following to be true principles of our society and adopt them as our own
We, the free people of Asgardia, declare the following
or something similar.
if something is "adopted" it must be for a purpose and that purpose must be stated (as it is not implied, like in adopting a child) If something is declared it is usually declared as the reason, support or basis for another purpose. If Asgardia is to be claimed the first space nation then it does not need to be justified by birthright etc. The justification is in the creation, which I think we can agree is on it's way to being done. Besides, the universe does not give us a birthright. Further, if we think it is the birthright of "man" then what if we find other life forms? aren't we just enacting the thinking of our predecessors who claimed that God gave them a right to treat others badly.
Let's just stick to the facts that we want a space nation, it (and us as citizens) will behave in a certain way and unify around certain goals and principles.