Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 10:37 UTC

Re: Discussion of the draft Constitution  

I advise the reconsideration of the Gor currency name because of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gor. Also, I have a problem with the tax part. What if i am poor and i am unable to pay taxes, does that mean i am kicked out from the Asgardian citizenship? 

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 11:46 UTC

about the tax, i think its for future not now ... they maybe ask a tax to make our ID or to resent then and things alike

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 12:35 UTC

I second Mr. Scarbs post.

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 12:37 UTC

Can you please post a version of this document with LINE NUMBERING enabled? It would make identifying specific text much easier for those making comments and whoever has to make the changes.

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 12:38 UTC

This doesn't feel like a visionary constitution, on which to found a nation, but a political operations manual. 

I feel that it contains to much, and as such is prone to internal conflicts of meaning and intent. E.g.: 

8.2: All Asgardian citizens are equal vs. article 2: Asgardia is a constitutional monarchy [...] – Having a monarch by definition and in reality precludes all citizens from being equal, since one has special rights the others don't.

8.8: [...] without prior approval on the basis of written notification. –  This means that it might be necessary to acquire a verbal approval? 

8.10: [...] Citizen rights and freedoms may only be restricted by the law of Asgardia to the extentrequired to protect Asgardia’s national sovereignty, ensure Asgardia’s security – This is no different from the laws of fx. the USA, which has lead to mass surveillance of it's citizens and concepts like "enhanced interrogation methods" and "rendition".

9.5: Asgardian citizens must pay lawfully established taxes and levies. – I now have to pay double taxes, since the constitution doesn't offer me any place to live that's not my current country of recidence. This problem is primarily a problem in the transition period. 

9.6: [...] citizens have the right and obligations to participate in elections [...] [or] may lead to legal consequences inaccordance with the law. – This basically means that I'm punished for not participating, even though 8.4.b states that I'm allowed to participate via representatives. 

9.7: What does "preserve" mean? No agricultural crop on earth is "perserved", and none is "natural". All have undergone more or less extreme transformations since our agricultural history began (back then water melons was the size of small berries).

9.9: What does "the common good" mean? Who defines the common good? And how is it defined? Good lacks measurable and imperial quality, which leaves it open for personal interpretation. 

10.6: and [must] take [public opinion] into account. – This opens for the possibility that "taken into account" becomes "I have listened, and because I'm the monarch, I will choose to ignore you".

11.3: What if I don't want to use my spare time for "self-development", "self-improvement", "creative" or "cultural pursuits"? Am I then not guaranteed free time? And why is the constitution even talking about free time? The constitution is not my employer. 

13.3: "Main" needs elaboration, or a reference to an exhaustive and definitive list.

13.6: Why is this even in there? What gain does the nation and it citizens have from this being here? And how does Asgardia support them? 

14.2: Why is the hard- and software limited to earth and the moon? 

14.5: "Science, art, research and education may be pursued freely in Asgardia, subject to the Constitution." –Subject to the constitution means that the constitution can and does limit what i can educate my self in? 

14.6: What is this even doing in a constitution? 

14.7: Since this is in here: "Asgardia guarantees the rights of authors, inventors and users of intellectual propertyin harmony and balance." How does Asgardia protect the rights of these groups of people? 

16.4: Yet, one of the most fundamental sign-ups in Asgardia's history: The sign-up to become a citizen was limited to a certain number of people. This was posted at a given time in a given time zone, which de-facto (dur to max number of participants) favour the inhabitants of that timezone. 

And the list goes on, but I'm getting tiered of reading through uninspiring, unspecific and irrelevant items in what still looks to me like a political plan, not a founding constitution.

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 15:05 UTC

 Some of the wording concerns me on the first read through. The term "Surpreme Values" is troubling. I would recomend the term "Prime Directives" or some other such thing.

 I make the suggestion due to the term "Supreme Values" sounding as if we would live in a dictatorship instead of a scientificly centered, community organized, space nation.  

 Also, the bit about a constitutional monarchy is concerning. It implies that the heads of state are somehow better than the citizens. This cannot be allowed as it will lead to corruption amoung those whom are supposed to lead the nation. If we are all truley equal then we must be equal.

 

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 18:10 UTC

В Демократия Asgardia является неполитическим. Текущее состояние землян общество не может быть исходной модели для построения системы управления состоянием Asgardia. Перед каждым Асгардцы есть сейчас вопросы самосознания, самоопределения и самоуправления, которые выходят за пределы национального государства, критерии и морально-этические нормы земных религий. И в какой последовательности двигаться - сверху вниз от себя-просветление, или снизу вверх - от самоуправления на наиболее, что на земном уровне, на данном этапе это не возможно, чтобы решить спор. 

оригинал-Демократия в Асгардии носит неполитический характер. Нынешнее состояние общества Землян не может быть исходным образцом построения  системы управления государством Асгардия. Перед  каждым Асгардцем стоят сейчас вопросы самоосознания, самоопределения и самоуправления, выходящие за национальные государственные  критерии и морально-этические нормативы земных религий.  А в какой последовательности двигаться – сверху вниз от идеального самопросветления, или снизу вверх – от самоуправления на самом, что ни на есть земном уровне, на данном этапе диспутом не решить. Поэтому пусть будет первым этапом принята Конституционная монархия. Почему бы и нет…


In Democracy, Asgardia is non-political. The current state of the Terran society can not be the initial model for building the Asgardia state management system. Before each Asgardians there are now questions of self-awareness, self-determination and self-government that go beyond the national state, the criteria and moral and ethical norms of terrestrial religions. And in what order to move - from top to bottom from self-enlightenment, or from below upwards - from self-management to the most that is on the earthly level, at this stage it is not possible to resolve the dispute. 


The original Democracy in Asgardia is non-political. The current state of the Earthlings society can not be the initial model for building the system of governing the state of Asgardia. Before each Asgardians there are now questions of self-awareness, self-determination and self-government, which go beyond national state criteria and moral and ethical standards of terrestrial religions. And in what sequence to move - from top to bottom from ideal self-enlightenment, or from below upwards - from self-management on the most, that on an earthly level, at this stage it is not possible to solve a dispute. Therefore, let the first stage be the Constitutional monarchy. Why not…


Admin Edit: Translation provided by Google - Jason Rainbow  19 May 2017

  Last edited by:  Jason Rainbow (Global Admin, Global Mod, Asgardian)  on Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 18:20 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times
Reason: текст оригинал и перевод ГУГЛ + Providing English Translation

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 19:07 UTC

Good day everyone,

First of all thank you for having this discussion and allowing feedback to be posted. I really do hope the comments are taken into consideration and is not just a waste of time of so many Asgardians posting their opinions and suggestions / amendments of the Constitution.

Secondly, I have to stand by Mr. Scarbs post, it is the most complete review so far and he makes some very reasonable points. Completely agree with his arguments.

Thirdly, I need to add a few more:

  1. - everywhere in the world the process of voting for such important matters is secret while here not only is it open / public, but it also bares rewards for voting "YES". Seems like bribery to influence a vote
  2. - article 45 forbids Asgardians to have the right to propose amendments to the Constitution; everywhere in a "constitutional" nation, the members of that nation have a right to propose such amendments if a threshold number of supporters is reached
  3. - besides the fact that a mandatory tax and levies system is a sign of a slavery-based nation, any taxation system that doesn`t take into consideration the aspect of avoiding double taxation can lead to absurdities like one citizen having to pay more taxes than he actually earns (one to an Earth country and one to Asgardia)
  4. - setting up a banking system that seems to mirror the one in existence today on Earth, with a National Bank on top of it will lead to exactly the same problems like we face on Earth. For such a novel nation, there is no need for banking, maybe just a sub-department of the ministry of finance, which should be in-charge with regulating the money flow. I thought we are setting up a nation whose goals are science, space exploration, etc. not a get-rich for some, get-poor for most scheme.
  5. - I strongly suggest having a cross check of the proposed Constitution against the UN Declaration of Human Rights; it seems some aspects are contradictory or are not included.

For the moment I rest here but I will add more if needed.

Thank you for your time

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 19:20 UTC

@Cosmin

"I really do hope the comments are taken into consideration and is not just a waste of time "

Yes, me and my team are currently monitoring this thread and compiling all of your suggestions. 

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 20:39 UTC

@skieswanne

sorry for asking, but you gonna assemble a document with the opinions and send to Asgardia or you are one of the volunteers of Asgardia and you are doing it by they request? i am confused sorry!

@All

I am gonna say my opinion, i request that all of you before saying that its wrong our at fault, understand that i live in Brazil a corrupted democracy,wheres my president,vice president and parliament its corrupt (and theres no more salvation here...) and where we have one of most high taxations of the world!(so for me tax its almost like a obligation for everything that i do).

About Governement: Theres no perfect governement system created until today, every type of governement have they own pros and cons, and i PERSONALLY think that a Constitutional monarchy is a VIABLE (not the best) option for now (i can be wrong, but its personal opinion).

About Taxes: this is for future not now, taxes can be applied on : Reissue of a lost ID, the selling of asgardia products (i can be wrong here!), emission of a oficial Document, Tax of financial movimentantion (to when we use our coin (GOR?))... and so on, its not other world thing, i think we not need to be so scared of this if they put that can not have a double taxation! 

About our Coin (GOR): Please change this name to something like: Credits, and create a second coint like: Dollar have cents and in Brazil Reais have Centavos ... and this will be a virtual coin?? ( i suspect that the name of the coin come from this: iGOR, can be wrong here ~)

Gonna wait some opinions on this! (please be reasonable haha)



Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 20:49 UTC

@BohZao

I am one of the volunteers (well, the veteran volunteer actally), and I am doing officially, it at the request of the admin. Me and my team's job is to compile all of your suggestions into as document that will be reviewed by the legal team (the one responsible for the Constitution Draft). You can view the document (and our progress in real time) here: https://asgardia.space/en/forum/forum/constitution-132/topic/working-thread-compilation-of-community-suggestions-for-the-constitution-draft-5387/ 

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 21:09 UTC

To clarify what I mean by "veteran": 

There has been a total of four suggestions compilation rounds (including this one). I am the only non-admin member to be involved in all of them. Ever since the first. I'm not actually old or something. 

:)

  Last edited by:  John Skieswanne (Asgardian)  on Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 21:10 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 21:19 UTC

@skieswanne

Ohhh, thanks for the effort!!!

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 21:21 UTC

My pleasure. 

Representing the people's will is something I am proud to do. 

  Last edited by:  John Skieswanne (Asgardian)  on Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 21:22 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Gem 27, 01 / May 19, 17 22:30 UTC

I don't agree with the head is state able to nominate a successor based on heredity.  I don't agree with taxes being levied when I am still paying taxes on the country I live in at this moment. I don't like the name of the currency. I don't agree with legal repercussions for not voting.  A monarchy? No, I disagree.  It needs more checks and balances.

In fact,  there are many questionable things in this. It definitely needs some rework. I am sure there are other items I have failed to mention.