Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 13:30 UTC

Re: Discussion of the Declaration of Unity  

I apologise for any redundancy created by bringing forth my suggestions.

Instead of 'redundancy' think 'voting for the change to happen'. Really helps change how you can view your own input. Everyone has a voice, and should use it.

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 13:35 UTC

Everyone has a voice, and should use it.

Absolutely! In order for a democratic nation to operate, its Citizens must be (self) compelled to speak up (or forever hold your peace).

  Last edited by:  Richie Bartlett (Asgardian)  on Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 13:35 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 14:39 UTC

David, I was referring to the possibility that the same points might have been made earlier, this making my suggestions a mere repetition.

P.S. : I like your work on the Constitution, and on the forum in general. I wish I could contribute to things myself too but there's time constraints​.

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 14:41 UTC

@Zyra, always been an advocate of free speech. My motivations for that particular line weren't meant to (wrongly) exhibit my lack of willingness to speak.

But I do hope the points put forth by the community, myself included, will be addressed aptly.

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 16:56 UTC

Re@ Lorezyra Thanks for the remark, I tried that before but it never seemed to work, but its all sorted now thanks.

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 19:31 UTC

I agree with the 12 points but I think it is necessary to specify a little more the economic issue since those who want to work and invest in the project asgardia still do not know well how the economy will work or what economic model will be managed. Additionally it is important to clarify where we will have a physical place on earth where we can address if the host country presents problems of security or public order.

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 20:09 UTC

veo que hay demasiadas personas en desacuerdo con el punto 12, pero a mi parecer es importante desde el punto de vista filosófico puesto que nos pone a pensar en cual es el verdadero sentido del nacimiento de Asgardia. Mas que olvidar nuestra historia se trata de ser capaces de iniciar una nueva, una historia diferente, una historia alejada del fanatismo, una historia basada en la hermandad y la necesidad de sobrevivir y avanzar como especie, un nuevo comienzo para la raza humana. Olvidar nuestra historia es imposible, pero me pregunto; ¿de que sirve conservar una historia edificada sobre muerte, bañada en sangre y convertida en el arma mas poderosa usada por los padres de la naciones y las religiones para oprimir y sembrar el miedo en las personas para mantenerlas asustadas? ¿de que sirve honrrar una historia de miseria y dolor?. nunca debemos olvidar quienes fuimos y de donde venimos para no repetir la historia, pero si debemos ser capaces de visualizar un futuro diferente a la realidad de hoy día y eso no se alcanza enalteciendo la horrible historia que nos trajo hasta aquí.

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 21:25 UTC

I think it gives us a good starting point where we can create our own future based on the needs of society. A voluntary collaborative society should be emphasized to encourage participation from citizens.

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 21:29 UTC

Hello,

Overall this is moving into the right direction; I am glad this reflects the reason I am here!

A slight digression first - Since this is a draft made to be discussed / improved, why not simply post it on forums / whathaveyou, let people discuss it, and then publish a finalized decree?
Or maybe the word "draft" is being improperly translated? I also noticed it in decree 2 (the calendar), which was to be discussed but got implicitly approved within decree 3.

On topic:

1) Asgardia is a free and unified space state.

- When using "free", please always clarify whether it is "free" as in "freedom" or "free" as in "free beer". I know it is the former here, but it should be explicit.
- What is the meaning of "unified"? Why mention it? Are we not "united" by default?
- "state": I prefer "nation", which means "new culture" / etc; "state" is in my opinion too narrow.

2) The objectives of Asgardia are to: [...]

I like the objectives; I would only add "protect Earth from within itself" as well (it was clearly mentioned in the last video from Dr Ashurbeyli).

Edit: Careful with the phrasing! See remarks by bigred.

4) All citizens of Asgardia are equal, regardless of [...]

I dislike mentioning all the characteristics. If one goes down that route, why stop at these characteristics in particular? Why not include "regardless of the number of fingers on their hands, their favorite color, their blood type, etc"? I would rephrase point #4 to:
"All citizens of Asgardia are equal in front of the law."
That works just fine. No need to say more.

(Edit: Added "in front of the law" following ka.laszlo's remarks.)

11) Asgardia is a country of free spirit, science and internationalism.

Same as above - too much detail in my opinion. Simply stating:
"Freedom is guaranteed within Asgardia."
is enough in my opinion.

However, it is a good idea to evoke science as a strong point of Asgardia; I would put science into a separate 13th point.

Edit: Very good remarks by ka.laszlo below!

Aside from these details, points 9 and 12 need some clarification, but others here have already expressed that.

Thanks and please keep going, I am loving being a part of this! =)

  Last edited by:  Houzefa Abbasbhay (Asgardian)  on Tau 05, 01 / Mar 30, 17 18:29 UTC, Total number of edits: 3 times
Reason: Link to remarks by ka.laszlo and bigred

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 22:01 UTC

@bigred I can relate to your reaction to my avatar; I reacted the same way the first time I saw it.
And, as you can see, I took it and made it mine >.<. It is titled HEX, by a digital artist called Dan Luvisi. Very futuristic, electric kind of work.

It might be wise to look into "international laws" before we agree to them.

I got myself some homework now.

@Phicksur your input is always very sobering.

Now comes the rub.

Define your terms in a way that do not infringe on religious liberties or personal responsibility.

Things are not always that simple, but I agree, there should be no tolerance for intolerance. The problem is, how do you go about practicing that without infringing on someone's freedoms. I feel it would be impossible.

I have to add: I feel this declaration is a bit lengthy and goes over explaining stuff that's already been explained in the concept page and that should probably be explained in the constitution and legislation of the country like bigred said here:

It seems to me there is no need to cover all the details just the broad principles. I would think that generally the details of interaction are generally codified in the constitution and the minutiae of daily interactions are held in legislative documents.

So, I believe we should try to keep it as simple as possible while still getting the message accurately.

@LoreZyra

In order for a democratic nation to operate, its Citizens must be (self) compelled to speak up (or forever hold your peace).

Very much agree with you, and I'm glad to see a lot of community involvement.

~Yovy

  Last edited by:  Yoevelyn Rodriguez (Asgardian, Comm Assistant)  on Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 22:11 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: Fixing formating

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 22:04 UTC

@ zouzou very good suggestions. Especially the ones about definitions and simplification.

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 22:18 UTC

When will be the next decree coming out? I was too busy at work, I missed it! :(

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 22:37 UTC

@Tida I don't think we have an actual schedule. They seem to be posting randomly. However, they will be posting soon because they are working on the two drafts to be voted on Unity Day.

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 22:41 UTC

@zouzou I think 11) does not need any simplification. Do not overdo it :) Science is important indeed, but free spirit is the soil of art, as internationalism is for a new level of social life. Also stating simply that "freedom is guaranteed" would conflict with any retorsion based on law. As for 4) it is basically a joke; not true, and cannot be true. We do not even know who knows and handles our personal data, but we do not even have any clue who are operating the website, who are the other involved personnel. Are we equal, do we have equal rights? No, but there could be a correction, maybe "all citizen of Asgardia is considered equal in front of the law".

Tau 04, 01 / Mar 29, 17 22:46 UTC

It seems most people on this forum have commented along very similar lines.
Most of the statements in the declaration just need re-wording however statements 9,11 & 12 appear to be creating a lot of consternation.

We could continue this forum with every new poster making the same comments which would mean endless pages of debate without actually having any full understanding or feedback into the discussion by the people who wrote it. This becomes pointless because we are essentially speaking without knowledge......never a good idea.

@Rebekah & @Rainbow - you guys are "global admins" so you must have some form of direct communication with Lena and the guys in vienna and moscow. Would it be possible to bring knowledge to this discussion by getting some feedback from them.

Basically we need clarification on those points before we can make positive and sensible suggestions. The purpose of this forum is feedback for the creation of this document, we need to understand their meaning and intent before we can be sure we are giving sensible, correct and useful feedback.