Leo 06, 01 / Jun 23, 17 04:06 UTC

Re: I do NOT accept the Constitution  

@Phicksur
What I am expecting to happen:

The schism will eventually  become a break. Those who ratified the Constitution will continue here  while those who refused will recognize the futilty of attempting to make  change from within and eventually move to create something of their  own.
(...cut...)
Thus, in the end, the  project will fail, all because of bad communications. The same thing  that destroys families and friendships will destroy a wanna-be nation.

So sad.

So sad,
but not surprising: too much greed leads to that.
I spoke, in the past, about the one who was playing football with friends and told "that's my ball": he just ended alone... with his ball.

Leo 11, 01 / Jun 28, 17 11:58 UTC

I argee. At least there should be a "I do not agree" button that brings our a form where we can give suggestions. In general it should have been drafted all together, not like this.: <Here, vote "yes" or forget about Asgardia>.

Leo 11, 01 / Jun 28, 17 19:30 UTC

I also disagree with the way it is written. To take it seriously means having a lawyer look at this, lots of info is too vague for me to accept this constitution.

Also, it says we must pay Asgardian taxes to accept the constitution? Of course taxes make sense when an Asgardian is actually occupying space aboard a space station benefitting from services, but it's hard to accept the constitution when there isn't even a space station or available services to begin with. I'm not signing up to be obligated to pay taxes for something that is yet to exist.


I also like the way this asgardian showed flaws in the current constituion:

  • All inclusive version: (changes in bold of course)

  • Asgardia is a free and unified Space Government.
  • The objectives of Asgardia are:
    • To promote permanent peace in space. ("Ensure" here would eventually create a police state)
    • To promote equal opportunities in space for all Asgardians, regardless of geographic, financial, technological, or other specificities of the countries of their planetary citizenship.
    • To ensure the safeguarding of all planets and the entirety of Asgardians. (I left ensure here because war happens)
    • To ensure equal opportunities in space for all citizens.
  • Anyone  can become a citizen of Asgardia, as long as THEY (he (really he?))  assent to the Declaration, and abide by the Constitution and the  legislation of Asgardia. (This line could/should be changed to just  "anyone can join".)


  Last edited by:  Naetster (Asgardian)  on 16 June 2017, 5:30 p.m., edited 3 times in total.

Leo 12, 01 / Jun 29, 17 05:09 UTC

@protean

Under Article 9 of Asgardian Citizen Obligations: Asgardian citizens shall pay voluntarily established taxes and levies in accordance with Asgardia’s laws.

Do you think Asgardia should have this clarified before we tick a box confirming we accept it?

Leo 12, 01 / Jun 29, 17 10:48 UTC

Después de haber leído la Constitución y leer los comentarios de los/las compañeros/as me estoy dando cuenta de que lo que se pretende con este proyecto de "Asgardia" es exportar por fin al capitalismo de La Tierra y propagarlo por el Espacio como una enfermedad. Esto es(será) una nación espacial y por consiguiente debemos sobrepasar y cambiar muchas cosas que traigamos de la Tierra. 

Por ejemplo: En una nación espacial no se puede tolerar la existencia de un monarca ya que es algo primitivo, un símbolo de desigualdad y privilegios. Y hablando de privilegios, todo Asgardiano/a será igual ante cualquier institución o cargo al que esté sometido o representado, ya que privilegio = desigualdad.

Con respecto a pagar impuestos en una nación que no tiene ni territorio es una idea absurda. Como humanos que aspiramos a la exploración del Universo no podemos tener un sistema capitalista porque en este se sitúa en el centro al dinero y no las personas. Es un sistema que requiere de una permanente expansión y explotación de los recursos y que no respeta la naturaleza, ni la vida misma. No podemos cometer y seguir los mismos pasos que se han estado siguiendo en La Tierra. 

Debemos buscar un sistema donde la base de la sociedad sea una educación orientada a la ciencia, al crecimiento como personas tanto individual como colectivamente, respetuosa, abierta e igualitaria y donde no exista la esclavización y el yugo del dinero.

Con respecto al sistema político, yo veo mejor un sistema donde sea el pueblo en su conjunto el que tome las decisiones teniendo siempre en cuenta los criterios científicos y humanos.

  Last edited by:  Tayson (Asgardian)  on Leo 12, 01 / Jun 29, 17 10:55 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Leo 13, 01 / Jun 30, 17 11:44 UTC

Hello everyone, I'm new here even if I registrated as a Citizen a long time ago. 

Please don't blame me for my english, I'm french and I use english to be understood easier. 

FYI, I came on this forum only to talk about this Constitution as soon as I read it.

Same as many outhere, I do NOT agree at all with this Constitution for many reasons as people have already explained in previous comments... No Monarchy, no capitalism, no pre-taxes for who knows what...I don't see neither why only people between 50 and 65 could be elected (moreover why the limit for being Chief would be 82 exactly, and why 82 when you can't be elected after 65 ????). They are many errors and approximations in it this Constitutions. Anyway all I'm saying is that it's not the Constitution for which I asked for citizenship, and I find it horrible that they use the datafiles thing to encourage the most naives one to accept the Constitution as it is currently.

I, as an Asgard Citizen ask for a new Constitution written for and by the Community of Asgard Citizens

Can't we use a platform as Slack or Discord to write it correctly ? Can't we ask to our Asgards Lawyers to put their international knowledges in common in order to create something totally new for Mankind, which will elevate Mankind as Asgard is supposed to do ?

By the way, does anyone know how to send our requests to current leaders/founders of Asgard in a sure way ? It seems important as it doesn't matter if we do not agree if they don't know it...

If we do nothing, Asgard will be a space sect more than a space nation...

  Last edited by:  Sinnay (Asgardian)  on Leo 13, 01 / Jun 30, 17 11:47 UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Leo 13, 01 / Jun 30, 17 14:03 UTC

In order to change the Constitution, there are few ways of doing so theoretically.

1) Petition. As of now, petitions require 1000 signatories who have shared all their personal information. Unfortunately, we do not know what the current traffic on these forums is (because that is where the petitions are posted and voted upon) so the idea of getting 1000 people might actually be impossible at the current time. I have a request into the support email for more information but it's been a week and I am not even sure they got the email.

2) Parliamentary Vote. It may be possible to change the Constitution by an act of Parliament. This assumes, of course, that the HoN doesn't veto whatever changes are made, or dissolve the Parliament while deliberations are going on.

So, either way it may actually not be possible to change the Constitution in the future.

EXQ

Leo 13, 01 / Jun 30, 17 14:48 UTC

@Phicksur
I may be wrong but, as far as I can see, voting process is still open. At least I missed any "end voting" announce, the same as the results (but I'm expecting them not later than 2020): have the Constitutional draft been approved silently?
If I'm right and the voting procedure is in action (as it seems, 'cause the "EULA's counter" is still increasing, even if terribly slowly), the Constitutional draft have not been approved still, so no chance to vote for a Parliament (generally speaking).
Maybe I'm not late to propose a motto: "one choice, one unity".

@Sinnay
Don't take it personally, I'm just referring a known fact, stated in decrees and Constitution: as far as you didn't accept (can't say "vote" as it was an "acceptance", not a "vote") the Constitutional draft, you're not a citizen but just a user (kind of guest), like me: no right to vote for anything, but full rights of speech (as it doesn't matter at all).

Leo 13, 01 / Jun 30, 17 15:24 UTC

According to the latest way the Constitution has been rewritten, only three accepting votes and no dissenting votes are required to pass it. It says more than half of all votes must accept, and that happens when you hit three accepting votes. As it is impossible to dissent against the vote, everything from this point is just posturing and grandstanding in an effort to say "we have X number of accepting votes and every single one of them agrees with the Constitution". 

Hell, at this point we're not even sure the ever-increasing counter is even accurate to actual votes counted. I mean, where are they all coming from at this point? People who were late and went "oh, well, guess I should vote now"?

So, at this point, I am just presuming that the Constitution will get accepted because the rules will be rewritten however it is necessary to make it pass. Many of the people who didn't vote for it will likely be shoved off the 'citizen rolls' under the premise that they must have been fake accounts and thus the actual number of Asgardians will become very close to the 100% of people who voted for the Constitution. Not all of them, of course, because that would be suspicious, but the vast majority, maybe 80-90%.

XLR

Leo 14, 01 / Jul 1, 17 10:30 UTC

Please read and sign my petition. It directly seeks to promote more citizen participation in government.

https://asgardia.space/en/petitions/9762-promote-active-citizenship-in-asgardia/

Leo 16, 01 / Jul 3, 17 09:00 UTC

Fellow Asgardian citizens- To those hoping Supreme Leader Ashurbeyli makes an official announcement that includes EVERY Asgardian citizen regarding the changes to the constitution since it was able to be agreed upon, voting on it, those who think all citizens should be notified about dates that don't change in regard to the constitution,  and finally those who agree the method of the constitution agreement collection as well as the leadership polling should be overhauled in favor of a verifiable and trustworthy system, I saw a petition and got inspired to write the following comment which is linked below about a possible solution for all this.. We need to have solidarity on all of this and need reassurance for the various unorganized fears to be quelled in an organized manner in accordance with the spirit that encompasses Asgardia and its citizens! :

     "The entire situation may very well be a sort of a beta test for the near future. Maybe a test launch of how to best go about this groundbreaking situation and make sure the bugs are ironed out before a lot more finances get invested. We should stay united and wait to see how things progress. Maybe we could form an unofficial committee tasked with keep an eye on everything official we can locate and inform the other citizens should things not go proper. Regardless of who we are or where were from, we all share the common interest of wanting to make a difference by starting a new sort of life in space and furthering humanity. We need to stand united first and foremost. I'm not saying don't sign this petition, because I believe in individual thoughts and opinions. I do suggest we all accept the constitution and if you're worried, sign the petition as well and make your voice heard here. This needs to get off the ground. If things go well, it'll happen faster.. If things seem like they're going south, we stand together and I'm sure people will be lining up to help. If we are to be a country, our message to the world has to be unity. A surprising amount of people believe this is some sort of cult with the aim at starting a secret and separate branch of humanity and/or that this whole thing isn't real. We must stand together and do our part. Most of all, we have to believe. Believe in the reality of Asgardia and act accordingly to the point where no one can doubt its validity. We must be united in this effort!

      Once said official 'unofficial' committee is formed, the group would keep evidence of all official document changes, keep track of media events and all that is stated, etc. The committee could, say, find a lawyer (preferably a fellow Asgardian) and make sure were covered legally in case the issues aren't directly addressed to each and every  citizen, and hopefully the lawyer could make sure the citizens located in other planet-side countries are protected by either national or  international law. If it had to go to court, surely benefactors across the world would assist us with legal fees should something this major have a need to become mainstream world news. We must be patient and show our firm solidarity here and ensure both the safety of our future as people of Earth and the safety of our future as citizens of Asgardia and the world view of us. I am positive that once we have this committee  formed and running, that we can inform every citizen of Asgardia what we know, what we have learned, and that we have informed our Supreme Leader Ashurbeyli of all of this and await a formal response to all. Once the committee reaches that point, we wait and then contact every citizen once again and find a really good way to put our reaction to the action or inaction of our leadership to a real vote. With advice from previously mentioned lawyers of course.

    I, personally, very much hope any of the issues will be quelled long before it has to come down to anything so major. I hope that you all agree with me and decide to stand for Asgardia. Since its been a while and I haven't seen a lot of talk of formal organization on these message boards, aside from petitions and message boards that could probably easily be edited or manipulated, I will offer my e-mail address at the end of this post or you can find me and send a message with contact info, and if you're an Asgardian citizen your Asgardian ID number, through Facebook and Twitter. I will reply with information on who else  is with us and once there are at least ten of us in total we can figure out a way to best get started and discuss what we know so far. We can  start a new official 'unofficial' committee thread on the message board as well and announce our actions and the results of our meetings, meeting dates, etc. to others there until someone has a way to obtain a complete citizen list and a means of contact. I am willing to do what it takes to unite citizens on both sides of this argument in a fair and logical manner for solidarity of the future of Asgardia. Message me and help out. We all have a responsibility to do our part! I hope to hear from you soon! This has an amazing potential and I know that we can all stand together and assure everything about Asgardia stays alive and just as promised from the start if not more!


-Email: tekzer0@protonmail.com

-Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AaronCorbitt

-Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/tekzer0

*On the latter two, be sure to friend or add me! In the message don't forget  your contact information, Asgardian ID number, and anything else you wanna add! And no worries, I will not share any of your information whatsoever with anyone without prior permission and notice (and it'd only be something the committee has voted on prior). Since so few citizens have agreed let alone regularly visit the site, I will wait as long as it takes to get this going. Time is of the essence due to everything that is supposed to take place by years end. Thanks for taking the time to read!"

Originally typed as a reply to the petition linked below on Asgardia 16, 0001 / July 3, 2017

From: https://asgardia.space/en/petitions/6493-the-voting-system-is-a-fraud-cancel-the-voting-on-the-consitution/

Leo 16, 01 / Jul 3, 17 13:24 UTC

[message deleted by the author: please, remove]

  Last edited by:  Elwe Thor (Asgardian)  on Leo 16, 01 / Jul 3, 17 13:31 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: deletion

Leo 18, 01 / Jul 5, 17 13:11 UTC

I missed the vote, since I was busy and didn't get an email to tell me there even was a constitution to vote on - which was annoying.

Now the vote is done and Asgardia has a constitution I accepted it, since I need to accept the constitution to be a citizen - which seems fair.

Now I'm a citizen (again - since before the constitution existed I was also a citizen!) I have every right to help amend the constitution we have and I don't like - but which I am willing to live by - for now.

Anyone who quits the country because they don't like an insignificant thing like a constitution isn't living in the real world!  (I know that this is an Internet forum and not the real world.)  I don't like everything about my current country - I don't even vote because it seems like nothing ever changes. But I can't quit!  I repeat that.  I can't quit my country.  I have to have a nationality and no other country will take me at a moments notice (except Asgardia!).  If Asgardia does one day become a real country and you decide to live there it's quite likely that your old country won't let you keep your citizenship if you take Asgardian citizenship.  Then you will be stuck forever!  That's just how life is.  Nothing is perfect.  I don't know what the constitution of my current county says.  It's probably in some archaic language no-one can read anyway.

The current constitution of Asgardia is the stating point.  We go on from here.  It will be important for politicians and law makers, but for the rest of us it'll be a historical thing.  What will make Asgardia is the people, the laws, the culture, the places ... etc.  There will be good things and bad things.  If Asgardia is even a tiny bit better than where I live now it'll be a place worth going.

Calm down - keep talking.  If you quit we won't be able to hear your great ideas!

Leo 18, 01 / Jul 5, 17 13:18 UTC

There was no vote. There was an opt-in for the Constitution.

"Anyone who quits the country because they don't like an insignificant thing like a constitution isn't living in the real world!"
Ok, seriously, you must have zero experience with legal matters to make such a statement as that. I do not even know how to begin explaining how wrong that statement is.

LRO

  Updated  on Leo 18, 01 / Jul 5, 17 13:19 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added quote

Leo 18, 01 / Jul 5, 17 14:52 UTC

@OllyG
There seems to have many inexact sentences, into your post:

  1. "Now I'm a citizen (again - since before the constitution existed I was also a citizen!)"
    If you accepted the Constitution (and while into the voting period) you are a citizen: before of that you was, like all others, "a user of a private company's website/forum".

  2. "I have every right to help amend the constitution we have and I don't like - but which I am willing to live by - for now"
    Good luck on that: just to remember you that a Constitution is a fundamental contract so, it can be amendable, but with great difficult (as it's right, due to its importance). My best guess is you'll have GIANT difficulties even to gather the 1.000 signatures for a petition, only to ask the Constitution will be amended (ask yourself why "1.000 signatures" when the average traffic, here in the forum, is 100-200 persons at all: as a matter of fact, the most voted petition, at the moment, gathered 167 votes at all).

  3. "I know that this is an Internet forum and not the real world": remember that, even in virtual world the same as into real world, "every action have a consequence": your "real presence" is not completely detached by your virtual one, at least not for Asgardia, which have your (uncertified) real data at hand.

  4. "I don't even vote because it seems like nothing ever changes."
    So... let me to understand: you don't vote into your country "as nothing ever change" and you're thinking to vote here and to petition for Constitution's changes?
    That's, at least, an interesting way of thinking. :-)
    How do you expect a king will change his own (absolute) powers, just to fulfill your "democratic" answer of justice, if this is not a democracy but a monarchy?
    Worth remembering that English' "Magna Charta" have been accepted by king John of England only 'cause he have been forced to cope with the situation his barons was leaving his government (and they was more powerful, considered as a group, than him alone).
    Are you expecting that "democracy" will be served you on a silver plate? People, in the past, died for it. Are you ready to die for democracy?

  5. "I can't quit my country.  I have to have a nationality and no other country will take me at a moments notice (except Asgardia!)."
    I don't know your situation at all but, as far as I can say, every embassy should accept your request.

  6. "If Asgardia does one day become a real country and you decide to live there it's quite likely that your old country won't let you keep your citizenship if you take Asgardian citizenship.  Then you will be stuck forever!  That's just how life is.  Nothing is perfect.  I don't know what the constitution of my current county says.  It's probably in some archaic language no-one can read anyway."
     a) First of all, Asgardia's Constitution states that its citizenship is not "exclusive" (art. 6, par. 2), thus you can keep your current one without the burden to ask your government to have double citizenship.
     b) I greatly suggest you to read, and very well, your country's Constitution, as it's the very base of your rights, not only of your obbligations.

  7. "Calm down - keep talking.  If you quit we won't be able to hear your great ideas!"
    I can say it's very very hard to "keep talking" when, as an answer, all you can see are
     a) marketing answers like "thank you for your understanding"
     b) unuseful statements like "we brought your questions to the upper level", and no answer at all, for months
     c) moderations and punctualizations at every point or comma you write, seeing many others can cross-post, do OTs and spam every thread without any single notice/warning at all
     d) whatever you say is "just trashed" as a fact: you can see that people's suggestions, to whatever argument, is just not listened (as considered useless, when not harmful)

All that just to give you some points to think on. ;-)