May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 08:58 UTC

Re: Discussion of the draft Constitution  

The distinction is a simple one. 

Constitutions should only do what their name suggests - constitute a state, establish a government and the detail the "how" of the workings of that government. Legislation is the legal protections and obligations that the state provides/imposes on its citizens in compliance with the constitution.

Therefore, legal obligations on the citizen have no place in a constitution. They belong in legislation enacted under a constitution.

  Updated  on May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 08:59 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 10:17 UTC

I think making it a monarchy is a great idea because it allows Igor to remain a central part of the organisation (one that he created) even if others are voted into leading positions. My personal views on monarchies are neutral however.

Edit: I havent read the whole constitution yet but is there anything in there about denouncing citizenship if someone was to change their minds at a later date?

  Last edited by:  Thomas Paul (Asgardian)  on May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 10:19 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: Added a question

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 13:04 UTC

It is the form of government in which the ruler is symbolically head of the state and the actual executive authority is the ruler. Nowadays England, Spain, netherlands, Luxembourg, Japan, Denmark, Norway, Sweden etc. Countries are governed by the constitutional monarchy. 
I accept this form of government.I will use admission. As a citizen? As a volunteer? Who will I be on that day? Google translate.... thank you

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 13:36 UTC

I don't get either where the idea of a monarchy for Asgardia comes from. I think this idea of a monarch who can dissolve the parliament, has a veto right, appoints the key leaders of the state and above all has an immunity is really far away (even schizophrenic, sorry for the term^^') of the spirit of the Asagrdia that we were involved in. The first parts of the draft of the constitution seemed pretty good but when i began to read the part concerning the government and the head of state (and the required age to be in the government) I was shocked. 

On the site of asgardia you say "ASGARDIA is governed by a Council of 12 Ministers" thus I thought it will be a Swiss-like government, the ministers (each one managing a specific field) would be the executive power and the parliament the legislative one. It is the parliament (elected by the people) who appoint the ministers and the head of state. The head of state being one of the ministers. I'm not saying that we should copy-past the system of Switzerland, but we should be inspired by it because at my knowledge this system minimize greatly the risk to end some day with a dictator.

Also the name of the currency isn't the best one..

I apologize for the mistakes, english isn't my first language, I hope it was understandable.

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 15:03 UTC

I find it confusing that for a state which is made up of primarily of the 20-40 age bracket that most of the positions require a minimum age of 50, is the point to be unrepresentative of the people? Also the procedure for a new head of state/government is confusing or at least to me it seems unclear and perhaps a little chaotic when compared to countries such as the UK, USA or Germany. Perhaps simplify it to direct vote by the people to elect the new head of state/government? Other than that on the whole the constitution seems good and sound with check and balances on the various arms of government and the ability to amend it as needed and it promotes the rights and freedoms we on asgardia share.

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 15:41 UTC

@bigred
The truth, here, is I'm feeling betraied: by Dr. Ashurbeyli, by his wannabe Constitution, by all it happened into this forum (but not by the users!) I saw from the beginning: all the activities running behind the scenes, all our questions remained (still now) without any answer, all the requests of transparency and to see some kind of (readable) roadmap of things was going on, no answer at all. I read so many "we're working on it" that I can't even count, but nothing like some "we did this and that, answering to this request: does it seems right or in need for some change/fix?". No dialogue at all, no words from officials nor from the CEO. Everytime "things are growing up and next month/year/century we'll tell you"... I never read some real news, maybe something like "we've been at <some place> to speak of <something>", no transcripts, no explanations... and now, on these basis, is it supposed I've to take all that as a closed box?
The "Constitution" have been the final blow to my (already little) faith in the chances this "kingdom" have to reach the space, with it's klingon-like currency.

Who presented himself to us as a scientists, with so many titles, an indiscussed authority into informatics, physics and electronic fields,  such a beautiful face, looks like a good grandfather, though not that old, all the time moving around the world, speaking to a lot of persons... and he doesn't know english, also! incredible.
Well... I passed the age I believed in Santa Claus.
I'm seeing he founded NGO Asgardia, which data (registration and so on) I can't read nowhere in the whole Asgardia.space website (and don't tell me "search the web": if I've to dig the web to find anything it just means someone doesn't want I know it), recently founded Asgardia AG  (headquartered in Switzerland), registered Asgardia trademarks by way GOR Corp., Cyprus (where, by the way, he have nationality, other than Russia)... so... who really is Asgardia's future king?
I'm not interested in any answer, believing it won't even come, as usual.

All this become like some kind of asgardian-vs-asgardian mud fight, with no intervention at all from CEO nor officials: we have to "invent" our own answers, basing them on whispers, speculations, feelings. Well, my feeling is I'll vote NO to this Constitution, and I'm not seeing a chance it will be modified at all: a few days, as I wrote, are more than enough to just read it. Having a feedback is just not-really-wanted, the same as for flag, insignia, anthem and motto: where the motto have been the first to fall.

This is why I ceased to write, here: having to be negative only, my opinion won't help anyone in improving the things. I also think Dr. Ashurbeily (I can still avoid, at now, to call him King Igor) is really not interested into reading our improving proposals, nor his legal team, my dear @LoreZyra: it's not that "they had no time", as they had more than a month (but leaving us a few days), they just didn't do it, as AIRC CEO was interested to become a king and to have some subjects to pay for it (doesn't it remember you something?).

P.S.
In my country I pay taxes basing on my income: which is/will be my income into Asgardia? I'll be glad to pay a fraction of it, even if, at now, a fraction of zero is still zero.

  Last edited by:  Luca Coianiz (Asgardian)  on May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 15:49 UTC, Total number of edits: 2 times
Reason: precisation about "forum activity"

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 17:56 UTC

Additional concerns about this draft constitution: This draft constitution seems to give the AIRC company the right to tax 180k people. This draft constitution appears to give the company AIRC the ability to create laws from which those 180k people are compelled to comply. (See Article 9. Key Citizen Obligations. "3. All persons on Asgardian territory must comply with Asgardia’s Constitution, its laws and regulations effective on Asgardian territory, as well as respecting Asgardia’s Supreme Values. 4. All citizens of Asgardia must comply with the Constitution, Asgardia’s laws and regulations, respect and implement its Supreme Values irrespective of their location, unless this results in violation of the law of the country in which they are located.") Even if the intention was benevolent (although incomplete and the implications not fully thought out), this is very new territory with VERY significant implications. This needs more thought, a lot of thought, a lot of discussion and care. Ten days is not enough time for the community to provide a considered response. Particularly as many people work 6 to 7 days a week and have limited time to read the 33 page document and come to a considered opinion.

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 18:00 UTC

  • CHAPTER 1.  Point 4.  All citizens of Asgardia are equal, regardless of their country of origin, residence, citizenship, race, nation, gender, language, or  nancial standing.
    --

    Unfortunately the constitution is not consistent with point 4 of the declaration of unity.


  • Article 32. Asgardia’s Head of State

    1.  The Head of State is the most senior o cial of Asgardia, the Guarantor of the Constitution, who sets the main directions of domestic and foreign policy and represents the state in the country and abroad.
    2. When dealing with other heads of state, Asgardia’s Head of State may also be referred to as the President, Monarch, King and otherwise in accordance with protocol depending on the other party.
    3. One year prior to reaching the age limit or in the event of a voluntary resignation, the Head of State nominates a candidate for the position of Head of State on a hereditary or other basis. Two other candidates or the same candidate for the position of Head of State are nominated by Parliament and the Royal Council of Supreme Values.  e election of the Head of State is put
      to a referendum in accordance with the law of Asgardia.

  • A king is not, and never has been equal to a subject.
    The citizens can not elect the head of state, and therefore are not equal to the head of state or Parliament and the Royal Council of Supreme Values.

    In summary, the document is not internally self consistent. 

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 18:15 UTC

  • Asgardians, 
  • Use this poll to point the type of governement that we think its best to Asgardia:

https://asgardia.space/en/forum/forum/general-discussion-14/topic/what-is-the-type-of-governement-that-you-want-poll-5424/?post=26067#26067

I would like to know if the constitution Volunteers can use the poll to make adjustion to the Draft?

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 18:44 UTC

I am firmly against the idea of Constitutional Monarchy and the obligatory taxation of citizens at this time. 

Monarchy is a step backward, and I can't even imagine how you could even consider it in the first place. Its an outdated concept, usually because monarchies couldn't be completely removed in the past, so a compromise was reached, if you look at the history of Great Britain for example. Monarchy is an enemy of a new democracy, that could lead to an abuse of power. Its an idea that should simply be abandoned and never looked at again. If it is present in the final Constitution it will be a major red flag that this is not a serious project, especially since the majority of the community is against it. We don't need a "king" in space, its ridiculous. 

Also, taxation makes no sense since we get no services in return for these taxes. These should come much later, only when we are getting something back, and even then, voluntary taxation could be the best option for a long time.

Thank you and have a good day,

Stefan

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 19:00 UTC

I've read the draft of this Constitution three times now and most of it seems alright. There are a few things that need to be changed. Most people have already pointed out all or most of my points. 

But as of right now if I had to vote for this Draft of the Constitution, I would vote NO. Need to back and redo it Mr. Ashurbeyli.

Thank you.

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 19:00 UTC

I will categorically vote no against any type of Monarchy or system where all people are not equal.  

Also, arbitrary age limits are just that, limiting.  Physical age is only one measure of wisdom and intelligence.  I will vote against any age limits.


Sadly, another good idea lost to individualism.


May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 19:03 UTC

@Stefan86 Taxation will only occur in the future, now they dont have to where implant taxes, only after they bring some service to us they will can do the taxation. (Example: Re-emisson of lost ID card)

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 20:17 UTC

Первый раз пишу своё мнение, но и случай тут необычный. Заранее прошу прощения за текст на русском: мои познания в английском слишком малы, чтобы грамотно описать своё мнение.

Хотелось бы высказаться о самом спорном - форме правления. Лично я против конституционной монархии. Вместо неё предлагаю следующую систему:

Выборы на основании всеобщего голосования. При 60% поддержке асгардианцам дать бессрочного правление выбранной главы, но с возможностью смещения народа, если 60% выскажет своё недовольство правлением. При смещении или по факту смерти правителя народ выберет нового.

Для меня лично данная система совмещает в себе одновременно положительные черты конституционной монархии и демократии.

Надеюсь, моё мнение так же будет учтено. 

Спасибо

**Mod Edit** English Translation - The first time I write my opinion, but the case here is unusual. In advance I apologize for the text in Russian: my knowledge of English is too small to correctly describe my opinion.

I would like to speak about the most controversial form of government. Personally, I am against a constitutional monarchy. Instead, I propose the following system:

Elections based on universal suffrage. With 60% support to the Asgardians give an indefinite rule to the elected head, but with the possibility of displacing the people, if 60% express their dissatisfaction with the board. With the displacement or the death of the ruler, the people will choose a new one.

For me personally, this system combines both positive features of constitutional monarchy and democracy.

I hope that my opinion will be taken into account.

Thank you

  Last edited by:  Jewell Ledoux (Global Admin, Asgardian)  on May 23, 17 / Can 03, 01 03:56 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time

May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 21:00 UTC

I'm recognize that my comments below have already been captured by others in this forum, but I wanted to reiterate them here in one location to add to the emphasis.

Generic issues:

  1. The formatting seems to vary throughout the document, with some indents following the indentation of the numbering, and others falling back to the margin (e.g. Page 24)
  2. I may be in the minority here, but I think it would be significantly less confusing (at least in English documents) if we utilized the Oxford comma. I saw a few sections where the Oxford comma would help to reduce confusion.

Specific issues:

  1. Page 3: We should include sexual orientation into the first statement, as well as throughout the document where we indicate those characteristics of individuals which are protected.
  2. Chapter 1: End of the declaration uses "One humanity - one unity" rather than the motto called out in Chapter 6, Article 26.3 "One Humanity, One Community" (which I personally prefer)
  3. Chapter 2, Article 2: As others have noted, perhaps a Constitutional Monarchy is not the way to go.
  4. Chapter 4, Article 13.2: I do not take complete issue with the topic of taxes, however I'm not entirely sure of the etymology of "Gor", however I thought we would have either an advanced sounding form of currency (such as Asgardian Credit Units [ACUs]), or perhaps something closer to Norse currency.
  5. Chaper 8, Article 32.5: This is one of the biggest issues; The age restrictions and durations of certain positions seem off. For instance, it sounds as though the Head of State has no duration or term limits. This is counterintuitive to the idea of Asgardia, where we are looking towards progress. Regardless of intentions, the path to progress can stagnate if the same person is leading for large periods of time. I am not proposing that we keep the cadence of the US (4 years), but I would recommend at a maximum a 10 year term.
    1. The age restrictions for Head of State, as well as the rest of the positions also needs revamped.
    2. I believe that the age limits for Head of State and Justices should be lowered to 35 years of age
    3. The rest of the positions should have a minimum age of 30 years of age
  6. Chapter 8, Article 32.12.c: The Head of State should not be capable of removing Parliament. This would grant too much power to the Head of State. If we want to build in the ability to dissolve Parliament, this power should either be handled through Parliament itself, or by the people of Asgardia.


Like I stated, I understand that most, if not all, of these statements have been echoed by my fellow citizens, but I felt it good to replicate them here to show additional support.

  Last edited by:  Kevin Pounds (Asgardian)  on May 22, 17 / Can 02, 01 21:04 UTC, Total number of edits: 1 time
Reason: Missed an item