Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 16:21 UTC

Re: Petition: Cancel of the current vote and creating of a new craft of the consititution  

I support this petition

Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 16:26 UTC

Agreed!  Throw the proposed Constitution in the trash and start again!

A side note:  4 times I have attempted to respectfully post my thoughts on a Constitution, and all 4 times that post has been "disappeared".  

IMHO, this draft constitution is dead on arrival, not because of Article 2, “Asgardia is a Constitutional Monarchy”, but because of the resistance present day mythology places on that form of government.

A review of history shows that every form of government can be perverted so that the few have power over the many.  Each case of such perversion and be traced back to a few simple motives; usually greed or desire for status of one form or another, i.e., the perks and petty privileges of being a big shot

Hereditary monarchies, constitutional or otherwise, have advantages and disadvantages—and, taking history as a whole, the disadvantages usually outweigh the rest. By quite a margin, actually.  

However, it is just as much of an error to make a fetish out of democracy. Every democracy in history has destroyed itself, usually in less than 50 years, by the people discovering that they could vote themselves bread-and-circus’s, that is, that they could tap the government coffers, i.e. greed destroyed their country via bankruptcy.  

As a side note, Socialism has such a perfect and unbroken record of massive failure that only liberals and self proclaimed intellectuals can pretend to support it.  The usual cry of this crowd is: “Trust us! This time it will be different.”  I refer the reader to http://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-looting-idUSKCN0YY0IR  for an ongoing example of socialism gone septic.

A Republic is nearly the opposite of a democracy in that, in a Republic, the Rights of the individual can not be taken away from any individual except by treason or deceit. Still, Republics tend to fail fairly quickly. The main reason that Republics tend to fail is that the people sell their Rights for the equivalent of beads and magic beans; for Privileges and Benefits.  The only way I am aware of the counter this trend is by continuous education in what it means to live in and be a useful Citizen of a Republic.  The PC (Politically Correct, i.e. liberal/intellectual)  crowd will scream long and loud as this deprives them of the ability to live well at public  expense without  work. Too bad!  TANSTAAFL (Look it up – somebody pays!)

While a Republic exists, in reality and not just name, it provides the greatest amount of individual freedom of any form of government of which I am aware.  

Here are a few tools which might be applied to extend the functional life of said Republic.  

Those who hold the highest positions of authority within the government should do so out of a desire to be of service to the people.  Those who seek high office should not look upon such position as a way to enrich themselves, their family or friends.  

Those who hold any position within the government should not look upon it as a career.  The damage career politicians have done within all forms of government throughout history is astonishing.  Further, the revolving door policy of many nations where a person establishes insider contacts within governments, then goes into outside jobs where those contacts have value, shall not be permitted.

    No person at the higher levels of government shall receive any financial compensation during their time in office.  (That’s right! No pay check and no pension!  Service is a privilege, not a career!)

   No person who has occupied any position in the government shall receive a pension upon leaving government service.

   No person who holds any position or series of positions within the government for more than a total of 15 years, continuous or otherwise, shall again be eligible for any position within the government, nor shall they be permitted to contract, directly or indirectly through any other entity, with the government for a term not less than 15 years.

   Any person who desires high office shall place their assets in a blind trust.  Any person who attains a high office within the government and whose assets, personal or family, have increased beyond that which can be explained by proper management of said blind trust shall be investigated for treason, and if found guilty shall suffer the penalty so proscribed.

Those who hold the highest positions of authority within the government should do so out of a desire to be of service to the people.  Those who seek high office should not look upon such position as a way to enrich themselves, their family or friends.  

Those who hold any position within the government should not look upon it as a career.  The damage career politicians have done within all forms of government throughout history is astonishing.  Further, the revolving door policy of many nations where a person establishes insider contacts within governments, then goes into outside jobs where those contacts have value, shall not be permitted.

Beware Rights and Privileges!  They are NOT the same thing!

Respecting individual Rights is the hallmark of a free Republic.

A “License” is permission from higher authority to do something that is otherwise illegal.

Think about it!  What is “illegal”, about getting married?   The first “marriage license” was issued in the United States in 1861.  It was put in place to “license” the otherwise criminal activity of “Mixed Race” marriages (something that is still on the books!).    To sweeten the deal, the government soon started giving benefits to those who they had “Licensed” to get married.

How about all the other things governments like to “License”?

A Right is something that you, as an individual own.  A privilege, on the other hand, is something that another entity owns who then grants you the ability to do something that was once a Right, usually after a bribe (fee, tax, etc).   For example: There was a time with travel upon the public roads was a Right (see: Magna Carta 1215 ad) then, in the united States and elsewhere, the “commercial” use of the public roads was licensed, followed by fraudulently licensing ALL use of the public roads, with armed tax collectors to ensure the continuation of the fraud.  Use of the public roads is now a “Privilege” and licensed and taxed.

Political Power comes primarily from two sources:  Money and military force.  If this is to be a government of the people, by the people and for the people, then these two sources must be firmly dealt with from the very beginning.

Money:

Keep a government poor and weak and it's your servant; let it get rich and powerful and it's your master. We don't want any masters.  To that end, and publicly acknowledging that (a) taxation is theft from the people by the government and that (b) government benefits are theft from the government by the people, both should be strictly against the law of the land.  

If the government feels that something absolutely must be done, let the members thereof first reach into their own pockets for the necessary, and only afterwards ask (politely!) the People they work for to reach (voluntarily!) into their own pockets.

Military force (at any and all levels:

First, the absolute Right of the Citizens to be armed at all times and to the same degree as the military (including police & other security) forces shall be absolute with (maybe!) two exceptions: (1) That of individual training.  Handing any person a weapon without first requiring that person demonstrate a reasonable degree of proficiency is beyond stupid! (2) That it being well demonstrated that alcohol and guns do not mix peacefully, all establishments whose function is to serve alcohol shall require their customers to “safe” their weapons upon entry.  

One of my favorite stories concerns a place with the custom of using politicians as clay pigeons.  The concept was that a practicing politician was exempt from the ordinary and customary protections enjoyed by average Citizens, but were liable in their own personal and private person for their public actions.  The reason for this is that any politician could do far more damage, was far more dangerous,  to the nation and its people, than any ordinary Citizen no matter how armed. The only charge that could be brought against a person for the maiming or killing of a practicing politician was that what happened to the politician was in excess of what he/she deserved.  I know it isn’t likely to be practical, but I like to dream. 



  Last edited by:  ksauber (Asgardian)  on Asg 5, 01 / Jun 22, 17 16:29 UTC, edited 7 times in total.
Reason: Poor web site design keeps losing my posts

Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 21:24 UTC

Lorditerator,

Do you maybe want to move this to

https://asgardia.space/en/forum/forum/petitions-156/topic/welcome-to-the-petitions-forum-6492/

There is an official place for this now.

TR

Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 21:28 UTC

Until it gets 1000 persons in support, the petition will be ignored if it is moved.

OSJ

Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 21:36 UTC

What about a new topic with a clever designed heading to get more people involved? Looking across the forum there many non-english conversations and concerns regarding the Constitution..

There are for sure more people then 19 which would like to have more time to review, and change statements in the Constitution.

TR

Edit (add)

..if the petitions will be handled properly, this is at least one way to go..

  Last edited by:  Temir Ra (Asgardian)  on Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 21:40 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: P.S.

Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 22:29 UTC

  • As of my point of view there are two separate issues:
  • - the vote itself
  • - the constitution

Divide into possible petition candidates:

  • Declare vote null (HoN decree)

  • Change Constitution based on forum feedback
    • - how?
    • - general discussion-forum as pre-selection of petition submission candidates?
    • - definitely more then one topic
    • - per article?
    • - in general?
    • - a completely rewoked/alternative constitution as replacement?
  • - more time for review of the constitution (HoN decree)
  • - how much more?
  • - what is until then? anarchy?

Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 22:33 UTC

I have asked for additional information regarding the filing of petitions here:

https://asgardia.space/en/forum/forum/general-discussion-14/topic/questions-for-those-wishing-to-file-petitions-6476/

So, when those questions are answered, the petition can move forward appropriately.

TSU

Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 22:34 UTC

@ksauber +1
Can't agree more :-)

Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 22:48 UTC

I also support this petition.

Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 22:50 UTC

The only thing I'm seeing, @Phicksur and @Temir Ra, is having to do all by petition will leave us into an infinite loop.
Officials just never answer(ed)... it's like to get back atop the waterfall with a rowing boat.

  Last edited by:  Elwe Thor (Asgardian)  on Asg 2, 01 / Jun 19, 17 22:51 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: typo

Asg 3, 01 / Jun 20, 17 00:59 UTC

I support this petition!

Asg 3, 01 / Jun 20, 17 01:38 UTC

I support this petition. I have reviewed the draft for the constitution, and it is not ready to be ratified. Section 35-9 contains an ambiguous use of "shall not", and section 50 contains the typo "Asgadia". I am largely in agreement with most of the provisions, but this draft is not ready to be the founding document of a nation. I wish to petition a redraft with these concerns addressed.

-Peter

Asg 3, 01 / Jun 20, 17 01:55 UTC

I say we redo the Constitution. There are too many loopholes in Articles concerned with citizens' rights and the sections outlining State power are too vague re the limits of State power. 

I think what we need is a separate Charter of Basic Rights for Citizens, then we can build the Constitution around that.


Asg 3, 01 / Jun 20, 17 05:21 UTC

Attention Everybody!

New Petition Regulations have been announced by @RebekahBerg

https://asgardia.space/en/blog/asgardia/7163-effective-petitioning/

We now also have a Petitioning Section within the Forums under: Ministry of Justice>Citizen Action>Petitions.


(I think we may have to redo this thread.)

Asg 3, 01 / Jun 20, 17 08:25 UTC

I @guzlomi support this petition. The Constitution must be totally redraft if they want it to work and get citizens' support.